GWR 6 wheeled open fish wagons

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Dear All, A little help please as I can not find the answer to, what I thought, was an easy, straight forward question. 

What are the colours of the wagon irons/braces please to the brown open 6 wheeled fish wagons?

I have currently got to the point of finding out that they were initially grey then early 1900 painted to the brown passenger stock livery. However I am unable to find any information on the supporting iron work around the body of the wagons. I think from the pictures I have been able to find that everything was painted brown but and it is important this but the irons do run down through onto the chassis. So was it straight forward and everything above the solebar was brown and everything below was black or did the ironwork from the solebar remain black, meaning only the ends and not the actual sides or (as with smaller coal wagons I see) all the iron work should be black?!!!

I only ask as this does have a major appearance difference and not one that could be overlooked, especially as each of the three doors in the sides would have a pair of supporting irons.

Thank you to one and all in advance and apologies if this makes you go slightly insane as it is currently driving me.

[Miss Prism]

11 hours ago, No46 said:

However I am unable to find any information on the supporting iron work around the body of the wagons.

 

On NPCCS, solebars, headstocks, running gear and any footboards were black.

 

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Thank you Miss Prism, not sure how I overlooked that site. This will make my painting efforts a little tricky but I think the end result will be very nice.

That does seem very definite although a number of photos from Atkins, Beard and Tourret suggested differently hence my confusion and frustration.

 

Thank you for your time and assistance, I very much appreciate it.

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, No46 said:

That does seem very definite although a number of photos from Atkins, Beard and Tourret suggested differently hence my confusion and frustration.

 

I can see nothing in the bible to indicate the underframes of brown vehicles are anything other than black.

 

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Sorry I meant the iron bracing around the wagon doors, corners and ends.

[Miss Prism]

The painting of the ironwork on the bodywork has never been documented in the standard works.

 

It would appear from pics that the only exceptions to the ironwork being the same as the NPCCS body (e.g, brown) are some  of the large horse door straps on some horse boxes. The large straps on the doors on some of the open fish trucks do look a bit darker than the body tone, so maybe they were black or grey, but I don't think it is conclusive either way.

 

[bécasse]

There is a standard railway "rule" to cover situations where precise instructions are lacking (and safety isn't critical). The men on the ground always did the job the easy way, which might suggest painting ironwork covering body panels the body colour. However, it is also true to say that the "easy way" was to some extent situation-dependent so to a painter who has just been painting chassis components black and has a brush wet with black paint, the easy way is to paint the body ironwork black too. Careful examination of the painting schemes for signal boxes (albeit with specialist S&T painting gangs) suggests that, if very precise instructions weren't given, the job was sometimes done one way and sometimes the other.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Thank you. Seems what ever I feel at the time of painting, may be one wagon of each? We'll see. Thank you though again for your help very much appreciated.

[Guy Rixon]

Further to "doing it the easy way", there's a difference between first painting and repainting. When the vehicle is first built, the ironwork is possibly painted before fitting to stop it rusting: the assumption is that it's made in batches ahead of assembly. When repainting ironwork on the body, it's clearly easier to go over in body colour.

[Il Grifone]

Presumably the first coat for the ironwork would be primer (probably red oxide?) and this would have stopped rusting. Painting it black once fitted would need careful brushwork, so would have been avoided if possible.

This could be the reason for the black on horse boxes. Perhaps the crimson turned out to not be as durable as brown and needed extra protection?

[Bluemonkey presents....]

I will hand paint the wagons so I can paint the iron work black and the wagon planking will be brown. I will hit the books again before completing and if I find some dated pictures that I can plausibly have as one ex-shop (black irons) and one repainted (brown cut through irons) I will. If not I prefer (at the moment at last) the black iron and brown body approach.

 

I will continue this on my work bench link; 

 

Along with my other ramblings and general Great western builds.

 

Thank you all once again for your input and help, feel free to continue on the work bench thread.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Painted one (well nearly finished) liked it so much decided to go for a pair instead of one of each;

 

 

That'll do.

[Il Grifone]

Many years ago, I set my cut-off point as 1927, so that I could have at least one of these wagons. I have still to start it....

Coronavirus lock down might be an excuse, but I'm trying to sort out recalcitrant U.S. freight cars at the moment and the distaff side keeps finding useless things for me to do like curtains....

[davidbr]

Bodies were all over brown with yellow lettering; underframes were black, quickly becoming grey with dirt.  Ironwork on the body was not picked out.  The Great Western did not go in for painting body ironwork in a different colour to the body itself.

[WillCav]

That's the spec. Usually - There are a few contemporary photos of horse wagons with the metalwork picked out in black.

You give the same painting spec to the a whole load of painters in a whole load of different locations and there will be non-standard variations.

Will

[drduncan]

Also, I think the brown livery for non-Siphons didn't come in until WW1 (or possibly 1912, can't remember which).  Until then they were still in all over wagon grey and had wagon, not NCPS, numbers.  Perhaps Miss P can confirm as I'm at work and can't check any reference books? 

 

So for a pre-WW1 layout grey not brown is the way ahead, and arguably if before the large 25" G W lettering, all over red too - and given the time taken to repaint wagon stock, red 'brown' vehicles with wagon numbers and the small G.W.R lettering would be appropriate for some years after...

 

Regards

 

Duncan

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

Also, I think the brown livery for non-Siphons didn't come in until WW1 (or possibly 1912, can't remember which).  Until then they were still in all over wagon grey and had wagon, not NCPS, numbers.  Perhaps Miss P can confirm as I'm at work and can't check any reference books?

 

The answer differs according to what type of 'non-Siphon' vehicle you have in mind.