Loksound L V4 - Rule 17, anyone got the definitive CVs?? SORTED!!

[F-UnitMad]

After getting totally confused reading ESU's manual for the Loksound L select decoder, and getting equally confusing or conflicting results after much searching of the Interweb, I'll do what I should've done first off and ask here....

Does anyone know the definitive CVs and their values to program the ESU Loksound L V4 to give headlights set to Rule 17, or very close?

Currently my Atlas RS3 just has directional headlights. I'd like it to have the headlights at both ends on together, but dimmed when stopped, and the 'forward' bright and 'reverse' dim - according to direction of travel.

It was easy enough to do with a TCS Wowsound decoder, but the Loksound charts might as well be in Chinese for all I can make of them!!!

Edited May 4, 2020 by F-UnitMad
Sorted thanks to Prof Klyzlr!!

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear F-unit,

 

Pretty sure we can get to the bottom of this quickly, but to avoid dead-ends, I need to clarify:

- You are sure it's a Lok V4 Large decoder?

- You are seeking to ONLY change the "Head" and "Rear" lights?
(Headlight = White = "F0f",
Rearlight = Yellow = "F0r")

- What sound project do you have loaded?

 

JMRI is not required, and indeed could muddy-the-waters by overlaying another layer of "chinese whispers" between what the Human wants the decoder to do, and the actual CV value required...

 

If you can answer the above, I'll try to confirm the values ASAP...

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Prof Klyzlr

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear F-unit, RMWebbers et al,

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself, I just had to "punch on thru" while I had the problem freshly in-mind...

 

OK, we're going to start with a few "given and druthers"
- the below is based on the 51972_LokSound_V40_ESUKG_EN_User-Manual_Edition-4_eBook_03.PDF V4 manual.
- We're assuming we want to adjust ONLY the "F0f" (White wire) Headlight, and "F0r" (Yellow wire) Rearlight.
- We're assume both lights are CURRENTLY set to "Dimmable Headlight" mode

 

IE:

- Headlight Mode CV 259 = 1   
- Rearlight Mode CV 267 = 1
(Ref V4 Manual Page 64 )

 

With the above assumed to be TRUE, you should be able to enable "Rule 17" mode by:

 

CV 31 = 16
CV 32 = 0
(This sets-up the "Index Register" so that the below CVs adjust the Lighting functions we want them to)
 

Headlight "Special Function 1" CV 263 = 4   ("4" = "Rule 17 Fwd")

Rearlight "Special Function 1" CV 271 = 8    ("8" = "Rule 17 Rev")
(Ref V4 Manual Page 63 for "which CV to change"
Page 64/65 for "which value to put in the relevant CVs",
and Page 66 for "what and when to use Rule 17 Fwd VS Rule 17 Rev", etc)

 

NOTE! The Lok V4s also have a "LED mode" for lighting outputs,
which is meant to adjust the way the function-output electronics "drive" the LEDs
so that the LEDs behave more like a Grain-of-Wheat bulb.

 

IF you want to try this "LED mode", adjust the above values by "adding 128" to each. IE

 

CV 31 = 16
CV 32 = 0
(This sets-up the "Index Register" so that the below CVs adjust the Lighting functions we want them to)
 

Headlight "Special Function 1" CV 263 = 132     (IE 4 + 128 = 132)

Rearlight "Special Function 1" CV 271 = 136     (IE 8 + 128 = 136)

 

Now, for those who are wedded to JMRI and would rather "think their way thru a screen-full of graphics"
than "think their way thru straight CV values", the attached screenshot should give the required "equivalent" settings...

 

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Prof Klyzlr
Moved screenshot location

[F-UnitMad]

Thanks to The Prof, & apologies for not clarifying a few things earlier (partly due to the UK/Aus time difference!!)

Decoder is the Loksound 'L' Select, a 3amp decoder, not the larger 4amp one. It is Version 4, now been superceded by the  Version 5, but that's immaterial.

It has the Alco 244 engine sound file loaded. Great sound, I love it!!

I am talking about just the head & rear lights, white & yellow wires.

They are 'warm white' LEDs, currently they do NOT dim* when stationary, just go on & off according to direction of travel. They DO fade in and out as they come on & off, not just 'instant full on'. That is quite a nice feature. 

I understand about doing the Index CVs first, then the high-number ones. All my programing is done with NCE Powercab, I don't have JMRI, Sprog, etc, so CV numbers it is for me!!

 

Many thanks!! Jordan.

 

*edit - that is, they do not dim automatically as the loco stops. There may be an 'F' function button to do this, but if so I don't know what it is, so I don't know if they are currently set up for this. Sorry!!

Edited May 2, 2020 by F-UnitMad

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Jordan,

 

Sounds like you're reasonably accross the situation. The only difference I'd note is that if your headlights currently "fade In/out" as they transition On/Off, then the "Mode" CVs 259 and 267 are likely currently set to value "2"
(Dimmable headlight with Fade In/Out)

 

rather than value "1"
(Dimmable headlight)

 

NB that "Dimmable" just means that if you:
- turn the Head (or Rear) light ON
- and manually invoke the "Dim" function from a seperate F-key
then the headlight will drop to a specified "lower light output level"
(default DIM level is 60% of "full brightness").

 

The takeaway-detail is that "dim" by default is a manually invoked thing.
Configuring "Rule 17" as-outlined should effectively make it "semi automatic",
relative to direction of travel... ;-)

 

Best of luck, I hope it helps!

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Edited May 2, 2020 by Prof Klyzlr

[F-UnitMad]

Thank you Prof!! Will give it a try when I get chance later, & report back!

[F-UnitMad]

Ok, here's what's happened so far.

CVs 259 & 267 were already set to 2 (dimmable headlight).

CV 31 = 16

CV32 = 0

CV263 = 132 

CV271 = 136.

 

The lights now dim automatically when stopped - but not by much, there must be CVs that control the 'dim' value?

But they are still directional, only on in direction of travel. As this engine does most of the switching on my layout, I'd prefer both headlights always on, i.e. non-directional.

 

[F-UnitMad]

I've tried to decipher the manual again. Looks like dimming the lights is just pre-set to 60% of full brightness (if the brightness CVs 262 & 270 are set to 31, which they are for me).

The chart also shows values for Rule 17 - front headlight CV263; forwards 4, LED 128, and reverse 8. Setting it to 132 as the Prof said (i.e. 4 + 128) does make the fwd headlight dim when stationary, but adding 8 for the reverse direction, so programming a value of 140, does not bring the fwd light on in reverse, but does cancel the Rule 17 dimming forwards!!!

Neither does putting a value of 140 (8 + 128 + 4) into the reverse light CV271 work either.

 

I can't see any mention in the manual anywhere of making the headlights non-directional. Maybe this decoder just doesn't support it????

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by F-UnitMad

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear F-unit,

 

Just woke up, so will need coffee before I dig back in, but adding the "4" (Rule 17 Fwd) and "8" (Rule 17 Rev) values together for a given Light "Special Configuration 1" CV will not achieve what you're seeking. (as you've seen, trying to enable "Rule 17" in _both directions_ for a single given Output is considered an invalid combination, and this ignored).

 

The key will be in the Function Mapping CVs, where :

 

- the White Output wire is configured by default to _only_ operate under "F0f" conditions (IE F0 function ON + Current Direction = Fwd)

 

- and the same for Rear, when Current Direction = Reverse.

 

 For clarity, pls set the "Special Configuration 1" values as outlined above. IE

Front = 132 (or try just "4" to see if it gives a better "dim" appearance)

 

Rear = 136 (or just "8", if the "Forward = 4" test above works better in "Dim")

 

This at least gains you the "auto-dim on stop" behaviour,

and we can "add the non-directional" behaviour on top...

 

...now, where's that coffee? 

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear F-Unit,

 

Right, coffee's onboard, and brain is firing...

 

Firstly, you've mentioned both "V4" and "Select",
these are _not_ the same decoders, and have some differences in "which CV does wot".
Ergo, we're going to have to tread a bit cautiously, unless you can absolutely confirm that the decoder is _either_

 

- LokSound V4 L

 

OR

 

- LokSound Select L

 

I appreciate that the Loksound website seems to group both "Select" and "V4" L decoders under the one entry/banner, but with the Select and V4 manuals having different CVs for Function Mapping,
there really isn't a lot of room for error...

 

That said, let's "proceed with caution" on the basis that your decoder follows "V4" function mapping,
and try the following:

 

- Ensure that the "Special Configuration 1" CVs are set for

 

CV 31 = 16

CV 32 = 0

CV 263 = 132 ("Rule 17 Fwd")

CV 271 = 136 ("Rule 17 Rev")

 

- Now, here comes the _investigation_ part

 

CV 31 = 16

CV 32 = 2

(Sets the Index CVs for "V4 mode" Function-Mapping)

 

now READ the current value of

CV 257

CV 273

 

I'm going to put my "crystal ball" glasses on, and hope predict that they are _currently_ set to

 

CV 257 = 20

CV 273 = 24

 

If these two CVs are NOT as above, STOP!
It means either:
- the decoder is a "Select L" instead of the presumed "V4 L"
OR

- we have a problem with the CV Indexing and "which CV we _think_ we are playing with"

 

If this is the case, advise what the _current values_ of these CVs are, 

and we'll try to "reverse-interpret" what's gone wrong by the "default" current values you advise)

 

Now, assuming CV 257 and 273 _ARE_ as my "crystal ball" suggests they should be,

(IE we have some confidence that the decoder _is_ specifically a "V4 L"),

 

then program the following values,

 

CV 257 = 16 (V4 "Mapping Line 1 : Control CV A")

CV 273 = 16 (V4 "Mapping Line 2 : Control CV A")

 

and retest...
(If you want to "test slowly", set ONLY CV 257 = 16,
thus only changing the FRONT / White-wire output behaviour).

 

If this works as I suspect it should, and you've changed BOTH CV 257 and CV 273 = 16,
then you _should_ see:

 

F0 (Headlight function) OFF = Head and Rear lights OFF
F0 ON + FWD Direction + Throttle at "Zero"/Loco-stopped = BOTH Head and Rear lights "Dim"
F0 ON + FWD Direction + "Throttled up for movement" = Headlight ON, Rear lights "Dim"
F0 ON + FWD Direction + Throttle at "Zero"/Loco-stopped = BOTH Head and Rear lights "Dim"

(Yes, it's a duplicate, I'm listing them in exactly the "order of test conditions" I'd expect to be performed)

 

F0 ON + REV Direction + Throttle at "Zero"/Loco-stopped = BOTH Rear and Head lights "Dim"
F0 ON + REV Direction + "Throttled up for movement" = Headlight "Dim", Rear lights ON
F0 ON + FWD Direction + Throttle at "Zero"/Loco-stopped = BOTH Rear and Head lights "Dim"

 

Hopefully this gets your loco performing how you wish it to...

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

 

PS just tested using a PowerCab and a Select Micro,
"proper Rule 17" behaviour is absolutely possible using the same underlying ethos as above, only with the specific CVs changed to suit the different "family" decoder...

...unfortunately I can't find a "set Dimmer level/percent" CV to lower the relative-change between "On" and "Dim" states... :-(
(Invoking the global "Dim" mode drops the level to a percentage of the output's "(Max) Brightness" level,
so changing the "Brightness" value (for any given specific output),
away from the Max value of 32

 

changes the "ON"/"Maximum" level for the nominated output,
and the associated "Dim" level for that output simply "scales" as the stated "60%" of the Max level...)

Edited May 3, 2020 by Prof Klyzlr
Compared Manual to LokProgrammer, adjusted "non-directional" Control CV-A values

[GP9u]

Great stuff as always Prof!

 

F-Unit, in case it helps, you can "roll your own" adjustable dimmer thanks to Loksound's conditional function mapping. First set the Front and Rear light outputs [1] and [2] like the first 2 screen shots below. Set the [1] output to max bright and the [2] to whatever looks like a good dim setting. You have a 31-setting dimmer scale for the [2] outputs this way.  

 

 

 

Then make F0 directional and add the [2] outputs to the "opposite directions" of the full-bright Front light  [1] and Rear light [1]  like the below screen shot.

 

 

Now Front headlight [1] bright will be on in forward, and so will Rear headlight [2] (adjustable dim). And vice-versa when in reverse.

 

By the way, setting zero in the 31 steps is actually on, and I find it best for the dimmest dim, as it were! 

 

You could make F0 conditional upon moving or stopped instead/as well if you wanted.

 

Pete

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by GP9u

[GP9u]

I should have added that to be sure you're changing the right CVs you can open the actual soundfile in use in the free Lokprogrammer software. Then if you don't have the LP device, once you've made the changes you need, choose "Show changed CVs" to get a list of what CVs you need to change manually.

 

Pete

[F-UnitMad]

10 hours ago, Prof Klyzlr said:

Now, assuming CV 257 and 273 _ARE_ as my "crystal ball" suggests they should be,

(IE we have some confidence that the decoder _is_ specifically a "V4 L"),

 

then program the following values,

 

CV 257 = 16 (V4 "Mapping Line 1 : Control CV A")

CV 273 = 16 (V4 "Mapping Line 2 : Control CV A")

Your crystal ball was correct!! 257 & 273 were showing the values you said.

 

BUT - I tried the new values - which were 28, and they didn't work, just stopped the lights from being on at all..!!

Just came on here to report this, and now note the edited 'new' values of 16 instead!!  I'll have to get back to you again, but as they were what you predicted before, we're probably getting there now!!

 

Pete, thanks too for your input, but I don't have a PC set up to connect to the layout, so I'm limited to programming actual CV numbers, via NCE Powercab. The CVs for front light bright & dim show in your screenshot. I'll give them a go once I've sorted out the non-directional bit, but if you could do a screenshot of the CVs for the Reverse light that'd be really helpful.!!

 

Thanks both!!

[F-UnitMad]

32 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Just came on here to report this, and now note the edited 'new' values of 16 instead!!  I'll have to get back to you again, but as they were what you predicted before, we're probably getting there now!!

SUCCESS!!!    16 was the right value. Both lights now on, non-directionally, and dim down at the right times.

Thankyou Sir Prof!!

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by F-UnitMad

[GP9u]

That's great you got it fixed!     

 

I am hopeless at doing this by CVs in my head the way the Prof can in the blink of an eye!  Plus my setup gets you bright in direction of travel and dim (adjustable at least) on the other end which I don't think is quite what you wanted anyway.  

 

But if you have  PC at all, you can still use the free LP software and download and open the same soundfile that's in the decoder from the ESU website. Then you can make the changes in the LP screens and choose "Show changed CVs" to get a list of what CVs you need to change manually with your throttle.

 

Pete

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear F-Unit, RMWebbers,

 

F-Unit, glad to hear you got it sorted... :-)

 

FWIW (for those who want to understand what happened "under the hood":

- CV 257 default was "20" 

 

IE  16 (F0 ON) + 4 (Fwd Direction)
Where BOTH conditions must be TRUE in order for the WHITE wire physical output to "turn on"

 

- CV 273 default was "24"

 

IE 16 (F0 ON) + 8 (Rev Direction)
where BOTH conditions must be TRUE in order for the YELLOW wire physical output to "turn on"

 

- Now, on a V5-family decoder,
One would typically ADD the "Fwd" and "Rev" values together,
so that if _either_ direction "state" was valid, the Output (Light) would come on,

 

IE make both CV 257 and 273 = 28
(16 + 4 + 8 = 28)

 

Said another way, One is effectively telling a V5 decoder to respect either/both "Direction" states.
(It doesn't matter what the current Direction state is, either is acceptable).

 

 

HOWEVER, as noted, the SELECT/V4 families of decoder handle Function Mapping Differently!
(NB that the "Select" series was built on the fuoundation code of the V4s)

 

SO, in contrast, in the case of a V4-based(inc SELECT series) decoder,
(which is what F-Unit appears to have in this case),

One removes any reference to either "Fwd" or "Rev",
effectively telling the V4 decoder to ignore whatever the current "Direction" state is,
and just/only worry about whether the "F0" function command is ON or OFF

 

Ergo, for F-Unit's V4-family decoder,
the trick was to SUBTRACT the "4" (Fwd) or "8" (Rev) values from the respective CVs,

 

thus leaving both CV 257 and 273 with a value of "16" (F0 ON).

 

Again, I'm really glad we got this working as-desired...

 

Happy Modelling,
Aiming to improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

PS GP9u, I wish it was "the blink of an eye".... ;-)
... That said, my need to "think things thru in direct-drive CV terms" comes from a professional "Tech Support" life where all-too-frequently, 
the only way to get to resolve the problem is to "talk to the machines directly"... ;-)

Edited October 12, 2020 by Prof Klyzlr

[F-UnitMad]

Yes it's the Loksound L Select I have, which as I understood it was a slightly 'trimmed down' version of a normal Loksound L; the Select is restricted mainly in terms of sound files I think, such as choosing just one horn type when programming it rather than having a selection to choose from on the board.

ESU don't seem to have produced a seperate manual for the L, either, you have to extrapolate info from the other manuals and hope it works!

 

[GP9u]

The LS models of the last 2 generations are:

 

Previous: LS Select and V4. The V4 series has access to the sound files where you can make and edit your own sounds as well as the OEM sounds. The Select series doesn't have that access but has the rest of the features. The "L" verion of both is a higher-current version than the regular HO variants, and the "XL" is the highest current offering.  There was also a cut down version of the Select - the "LS Essentials", which didn't have all the Select features, that was used in a few low-cost HO locos.

 

The current series is Loksound 5 (they dropped the V) and it only comes with full sound file access like the old V4s. There's no LS5 "Select" equivalent. There are two main variants: LS5 DCC which supports DCC only and is aimed at the NA and Oz markets. Then there's the LS5 series for the EU and other markets which supports multiple protocols such as M4, Selectrix, Motorola etc. as well as more automated braking features.

 

The LS5 DCC version now matches the NMRA standard for CV3 and CV4 so it has four times the "inertia" and "coasting" than the multi-protocol LS5. As well the LS5 DCC now supports the 3-step speed table by including CV6 as well as CV2 and CV5, which the Selects and V4s didn't.          

 

So a Loksound Select "L" is a medium duty Select suitable for O scale locos.  A Loksound Essentials is a "HO-sized" cut down Select. 

 

Clear as mud!   

 

Pete

 

[F-UnitMad]

16 minutes ago, GP9u said:

Clear as mud!   

Isn't it just!! Hence my confusion between 'Select' & 'V4'...

 

One thing I do know - they - like TCS Wowsound, and QSI, blow Soundtraxx Tsunami out of the water!!! Almost literally - the horns on a Tsunami sound very feeble after a good blast by any of the others!!

[jasond]

OK.  Great thread.  Now ... what do I press to get my Loksound decoders, etc out of my container 45 mins away.

 

Aaaaarrrgggghhhhh.......................!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Jason,

 

May I suggest grabbing Scotty and Jordie, heading to the Cargo Bay, and firing up the Transporter?

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr