Another newbie looking for help

[Monkey]

Being completely new to the hobby, but having lurked for a couple of years, I've decided to use my new-found spare time to finally lay down some track. 

 

I'm in the planning stages, and not very good at it. I'm trying to come up with a minories style layout with platforms long enough for 2+3 length HSTs. I'd like to keep to a maximum of 16ft x 2ft including the off-scene fiddle yard, that again has to be long enough to hold up to 5 HSTs. 

 

By my reckoning my HSTs are going to be about 5ft long, which x2 leaves 6ft to get the station throat and the fiddle yard pointwork in. 

 

I know its cheeky, basically asking someone to come up with a plan for me, but if anyone has the skills and time I'd be ever so grateful. 

[Philou]

Hello and welcome,

 

I'm not much of a planner as I tend to adopt and adapt however, to save space and not have fiddle yard pointwork, have you considered a traverser or something similar as points eat the space.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Monkey said:

I'm in the planning stages, and not very good at it. I'm trying to come up with a minories style layout with platforms long enough for 2+3 length HSTs. I'd like to keep to a maximum of 16ft x 2ft including the off-scene fiddle yard, that again has to be long enough to hold up to 5 HSTs. 

 

By my reckoning my HSTs are going to be about 5ft long, which x2 leaves 6ft to get the station throat and the fiddle yard pointwork in.

 

So, do you already have the HSTs or are you planning to buy them?  (Or, to put it another way, is there an alternative where your trains can be shorter by going with something other than HSTs? Or, if you don't have trains yet, are you possibly interested in N?)

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by mdvle

[Monkey]

I already have one set of powercars, and class 43s are my thing (grew up next to Paddington in the 80s), so I want to stick to oo. 

 

I will run other things too, NSE DMUs probably, but the layout has to be capable of handing the HSTs. I'm already compromising on the length of the rake. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Monkey

[Monkey]

2 hours ago, Philou said:

Hello and welcome,

 

I'm not much of a planner as I tend to adopt and adapt however, to save space and not have fiddle yard pointwork, have you considered a traverser or something similar as points eat the space.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

That's an idea I hadn't considered. Thanks! 

[Clearwater]

Hi

 

Would suggest you download anyrail and play around with it.  It’s a simple track planning tool.  You can select Peco/Hornby track etc and snap it together.  You’ll get an idea quickly on what you might want to do.

[Harlequin]

Hi Monkey,

 

I think your basic scheme is workable, everything will fit, if you use a traverser.

 

Have a look at “Pacific Terminus” in my track plans album here: 

 

 

Notice that the grid squares are 250mm wide on this plan. It was designed for steam but it could be adapted for the HST era.

[Monkey]

Hi Harlequin, 

 

Thanks for sharing your layout. That really does fit the bill perfectly, and arranged that way kind of represents Paddington to me.

 

I'm apprehensive about a traverser though. I already think I'm taking on a fair bit doing this as a first project. It's nearly 25 years since I did woodwork at school! 

 

 

[Chimer]

I reckon a conventional fan fiddle yard stuck on the end of Phil's throat would give you at least two sidings long enough for a 5-car HST with another 3 long enough for shorter MUs - how many 5-car units are you planning to run?

 

Cassettes would be another option, though 5' cassettes would need careful handling!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Monkey]

46 minutes ago, Chimer said:

I reckon a conventional fan fiddle yard stuck on the end of Phil's throat would give you at least two sidings long enough for a 5-car HST with another 3 long enough for shorter MUs - how many 5-car units are you planning to run?

 

Cassettes would be another option, though 5' cassettes would need careful handling!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

I'm thinking that I might squeeze that in now too. I've painstaking recreated 'Pacific Terminus' using scarm, and found that I've still got just under half of my maximum length left.

 

I expect to have up to 5 x HSTs covering various time periods and themes. My plan is to have a layout that I can equally run Swallow HSTs and my NSE class 50 sometimes, and other times replace them with GWR sets. I also have the  NMT Class 43 on order that I'll need to find somewhere suitable to position.

 

Although I'm not modelling it on Paddington per se, the terminus would be a smaller representation of it, i.e. a London terminus for the western region. So I have room for creative licence as I want, for example a NR depot where the NMT can stable.

 

Thanks to Phil I definitely  have the foundation of my layout, now it's adapting it's use to suit my theme(s) and sorting out this fiddle-yard business,

 

If I can avoid a traverser / cassettes (scary!) I'd rather.

[Zomboid]

Could you find a way to simplify things a bit and allow another HST trailer? 2+4 would look a lot better than 2+3 to my mind. Would mean 6 foot platforms and probably a traverser, but I'd try to get something like that in if at all possible.

 

Also how about basing it on the other end of the line? Penzance has a single track main on the final approach to the station, so the throat pointwork would be simplified (hence could be shorter), and 50s were seen there a lot as well as HSTs, though maybe not hugely common in their NSE days.

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Monkey said:

 

I'm thinking that I might squeeze that in now too. I've painstaking recreated 'Pacific Terminus' using scarm, and found that I've still got just under half of my maximum length left.

 

I expect to have up to 5 x HSTs covering various time periods and themes. My plan is to have a layout that I can equally run Swallow HSTs and my NSE class 50 sometimes, and other times replace them with GWR sets. I also have the  NMT Class 43 on order that I'll need to find somewhere suitable to position.

 

Although I'm not modelling it on Paddington per se, the terminus would be a smaller representation of it, i.e. a London terminus for the western region. So I have room for creative licence as I want, for example a NR depot where the NMT can stable.

 

Thanks to Phil I definitely  have the foundation of my layout, now it's adapting it's use to suit my theme(s) and sorting out this fiddle-yard business,

 

If I can avoid a traverser / cassettes (scary!) I'd rather.

 

 

It's all a matter of finding the compromise that works best for you.

 

One of those compromises is how compressed your scene is vs. the compression of the FY. It may be worth the more complex, more compressed FY (e.g. a traverser) to make the scene more spacious because a bit more space usually looks better. Room for a concourse, room for longer platforms than the trains, etc...

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Harlequin

[Monkey]

40 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Could you find a way to simplify things a bit and allow another HST trailer? 2+4 would look a lot better than 2+3 to my mind. Would mean 6 foot platforms and probably a traverser, but I'd try to get something like that in if at all possible.

 

Also how about basing it on the other end of the line? Penzance has a single track main on the final approach to the station, so the throat pointwork would be simplified (hence could be shorter), and 50s were seen there a lot as well as HSTs, though maybe not hugely common in their NSE days.

 

I'd always thought the conventional orientation of Minories looked quite like Penzance anyway - although I thought it was double track and therefore wouldn't save much in the way of pointwork.

 

I take on board what you say about simplifying it, but then I think the pointwork is part of the interest of the layout. If you take that away it loses something.

 

You mentioning longer HSTs has made me think of something, eventually I want to get a Class 800 which although 5 cars long would be longer I think. So perhaps I need to plan for this and make sure I have a platform long enough to accommodate that anyway.

[Zomboid]

46 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I'd always thought the conventional orientation of Minories looked quite like Penzance anyway - although I thought it was double track and therefore wouldn't save much in the way of pointwork

It does, just the landward side track is access to long rock, and the seaward side one is the running line.

The benefit of such a thing would be that you wouldn't need every platform to have access to both roads, so the throat could be a bit shorter, but you're right that it also alters the character.

 

A 5 car 800 is definitely longer than a 2+3. By my counting it's about 130m compared to around 109m for the HST (not allowing for overscale gaps between the cars), the difference at 21m is effectively a mk3 carriage. So if you want one of those then you'll have to allow space for a 2+4.

[Monkey]

That's not too bad, I've been allowing 1.5m for the 2+3 working on an average of 300mm each

 

I thought the 43s were 265mm and the mk3s 305mm

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Also how about basing it on the other end of the line? Penzance has a single track main on the final approach to the station, so the throat pointwork would be simplified (hence could be shorter), and 50s were seen there a lot as well as HSTs, though maybe not hugely common in their NSE days.

 

In case they're of interest, I posted some ideas derived from Penzance on another thread a while back.  Do note that the layout plans use Setrack so are diagrammatic only in this instance.

 

 

[Zomboid]

23 minutes ago, Monkey said:

That's not too bad, I've been allowing 1.5m for the 2+3 working on an average of 300mm each

 

I thought the 43s were 265mm and the mk3s 305mm

I was using the full size lengths (assumed 20m for HST PC, 23m for mk3 and 26m for class 800 vehicles)

 

Here's a sketch of the kind of thing I was thinking of. Having nominally 6' long trains in a 16' layout is a bit limiting, and I doubt anyone would recommend the lines parallel to the baseboard edge as I've shown, but it'll give you an idea...

Each platform and storage yard road ought to hold a train a bit under 6' long. A traverser would allow more space on the whole thing. There's space for more "stuff" if you want to use slips and/or 3-ways. I used long points on the visible section, mediums or shorts will also buy more space at the cost of sharper corners. Not having to connect the Up & Down buys quite a bit of space off scene, on the basis that some trains go to/from "Long Rock" for servicing between trips to the station.

 

Or you could do something completely different, I enjoyed drawing it

Edited May 4, 2020 by Zomboid

[JDW]

Sticking with that idea, if you had "Long Rock" as scenic sidings at the front, you could have one or two units/trains on display, with the 4-road fiddle yard 'main line' hidden behind - although it might need careful thought about the scenery hiding the fiddle yard. I've seen a few layouts where the main line disappears parallel to the visible sidings under a road bridge, and behind the sidings is the wall of a huge factory or something, which would be right in the path of the main line, and (to me) kinda spoils the illusion!

[Zomboid]

If they diverge a bit on scene then a few trees or something could work. Or the sidings could be in a half modelled shed (so you're modelling the interior) with the back wall of the building hiding the FY.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Zomboid

[ITG]

Whilst what follows won’t affect DMU, EMUs or HST, if you ever run a loco + carriages combination, remember that the lengths allowed for platforms will presumably need to cater for whatever on-track uncoupling mechanism you use. That is, if you want your incoming loco to uncouple and pull forward, (so another loco can couple to other end of train) that’s a couple of extra cms needed. By similar logic, if a shunter pushes in x carriages, then wants to uncouple and withdraw, if you want the entire train to align with a platform length, the siting of the uncoupling ramp is key.

and of course, if there’s any bend in track, even through crossovers, the parked uncoupled vehicles/train need to stand clear enough for any overhang from adjacent parallel track .

i know this as I’ve already made that mistake and didn’t allow enough room for the above manoeuvres!

[DCB]

If you go the PZ "Long Rock" route you can have three or so visible storage roads maybe with fuel and cleaning facilities separated by a scenic break from the hidden sidings.    Trouble is PZ has a sleeper service so you need a 57, maybe a gronk as well.

 

The coupling issue will need either active uncouplers, not spring loaded ramps a la Hornby or Kadees with delayed uncoupling, though again electro magnets would be more realistic?

[Harlequin]

I know many layouts use the pattern of a hidden FY behind a scenic break but the trouble with that is it really needs access from the back. If access is only available at the front, as in the typical domestic setting, it's difficult to actually fiddle. Maybe that's not such a problem with rakes that usually remain intact?

 

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Harlequin

[Monkey]

4 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I was using the full size lengths (assumed 20m for HST PC, 23m for mk3 and 26m for class 800 vehicles)

 

 

 

Doh! 

[Monkey]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I appreciate you taking the time to look at this for me. 

 

I think my heart is still in a minories-style layout, however the Long Rock sidings idea I like. That could be the depot / stabling for the NMT (or sleeper if I get one - not keen on 57s though, so might have a bit of artistic licence with that one and use a 59 or 37).

 

That would open up a bit more of the second board for use and I could have maybe squeeze 2 or 3 roads into a hidden fiddle yard... After all it doesn't all have to be on the track at once does it?

 

Then I'd avoid the dreaded traverser too.

 

I don't anticipate much fiddling / uncoupling. It'll be mostly HSTs or DMUs. I could always top and tail other diesels or a visiting steam tour. 

[Chimer]

If you envisage regularly swapping long rakes of HSTs or other MUs, cassettes do have advantages (as well as perils) when you consider the faff of uncoupling and packing away the old set, then unpacking the new lot and  getting 10 bogies properly re-railed.  I soon got fed up doing this with just a 2-car unit …….