1960s LMR local passenger services with non-regional coaching stock?

[SP Steve]

I'm in the process of formulating my requirements for carriage stock to populate an EM North West of England based layout set in the year 1961.

 

My proposed traffic flows are local in nature, comprising of a mixture of DMUs and loco hauled workings to a maximum of three / four coaches formed as BTK-CK-TK-BTK or variations thereof. I've already accrued a fair number of 57' / 60' Stanier Corridor/Non-Corridor types and I could throw an odd Mk 1 into the mix so I'm covered on this aspect but my question is this; Could there have been coaching stock from another of the big four operators involved? I'm thinking that if this did occur then the most likely contenders would be ex LNER types that have gravitated westwards over the Pennines towards Manchester and then been nabbed in desperation to cover a local shortage.

 

I know that inter-regional cross country type services of this period contained a mixture of types but I'm talking strictly local services within the same region (and for these I'm thinking along the lines of Blackpool / Southport - Preston,  Bury - Wigan type distances) and whether such 'borrowing' took place and if so how long could a vehicle be retained before being sent back?

 

I'm not talking masses of vehicles but it would be nice to chuck in an oddity or two to provide variability so I would be very grateful if anyone could say if this practice ever occurred and, if so, what would be the most likely contenders.

 

P.S. I'm aware that eighty LMS Non-corridor Composite D2189 coaches were in fact built at Swindon to their Diagram E156 so that is one possibility already penciled in.

[chrisf]

In theory anything is possible because coaches have wheels.  The Railway Observer reported a sighting of an ex-GWR non-corridor composite, 6731, at Preston in 1953.  It had been part of a Chester division set that would have been transferred to the London Midland Region following changes to regional boundaries.   If any bits of Eastern Region territory were transferred to the London Midland it is more than possible that some ER stock went with them.  A pile of photos taken in the territory that you are modelling and a powerful magnifying glass might come in handy.

 

If you are modelling 1961, don't forget the dmus.  They would have displaced much loco-hauled stock.  That which still had some life left in it would have gone elsewhere but anything about 30 years old would have been scrapped.  Many of the GWR design composites built for the LM did not stay there and I can just about recall seeing one at Acton Main Line when I was a spotty spotter.

 

Chris

[Marshall5]

I also model the N.W. area, specifically around Bolton where I grew up, at the same period but in 7mm.  Firstly, I would avoid "the odd Mk1" unless its a BG in a parcels as, without converters, the passenger stock gangways were incompatible with Stanier stock.  At this time Mk1's were still frontline stock so would tend to be run, mostly in full rakes, on main rather than secondary routes.  Many quite long distance stopping trains were still made up of non-corridor stock e.g Liverpool - Rochdale and the odd Thompson vehicle could be seen in these. Whole rakes of out of region stock could be seen at Southport on excursions - often non-corridor.... bladders must've been stronger in those days!  Where memory fails I refer to the Ian Allan colour albums like 'On L&Y lines' and 'Heyday of steam around Manchester'.  One of these actually has a photo of a D2189 at Lostock Jc.  Albums in the Foxline series cover Blackpool, Southport & Bolton.

For variety I have a mixed rake of periods 1, 2, & 3 Stanier non-corridors which wasn't untypical for the 1959-61 period I model.  Please let me know if I can be of any further help.

Cheers,

Ray.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

This will be an interesting thread for me.

 

I definitely take Chris' point about a magnifying glass. The most likely candidate for something borrowed is one or two extras hung on the back of the usual set. As most photos concentrate on the loco it is hard to know what's on the back of the train.

 

Certainly, plenty of ex-LNE stock around Manchester. So if the train originates from that area, surely a possibility. 

[jonny777]

Colour albums are an excellent reference source, as Marshall5 says; but also you might like to investigate the B&R series of dvds. There are six volumes of L&Y Memories and I have some of them, which are excellent for getting an idea of what the services were like in steam days. 

 

Try - http://www.brvideos.co.uk/category/lancashire-yorkshire-memories/

[SP Steve]

7 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

I also model the N.W. area, specifically around Bolton where I grew up, at the same period but in 7mm.  Firstly, I would avoid "the odd Mk1" unless its a BG in a parcels as, without converters, the passenger stock gangways were incompatible with Stanier stock.  At this time Mk1's were still frontline stock so would tend to be run, mostly in full rakes, on main rather than secondary routes.  Many quite long distance stopping trains were still made up of non-corridor stock e.g Liverpool - Rochdale and the odd Thompson vehicle could be seen in these. Whole rakes of out of region stock could be seen at Southport on excursions - often non-corridor.... bladders must've been stronger in those days!  Where memory fails I refer to the Ian Allan colour albums like 'On L&Y lines' and 'Heyday of steam around Manchester'.  One of these actually has a photo of a D2189 at Lostock Jc.  Albums in the Foxline series cover Blackpool, Southport & Bolton.

For variety I have a mixed rake of periods 1, 2, & 3 Stanier non-corridors which wasn't untypical for the 1959-61 period I model.  Please let me know if I can be of any further help.

Cheers,

Ray.

 

 

Thanks for the info - I was aware of the D2189 image as that's were I'd got the inspiration from!

 

I had it in mind that Thompson stock could be suitable candidates so will look into them in more detail. I've got a rake of non-corridor Staniers (D1735 BT, D1734 C, D1701 T, D1906 and D1964 BT) which I'd planned for using as a workmans service along with three other rakes of corridor stock (four in each rake) for other workings.

 

As Chris says in his post, by 1961 most local workings were found in the hands of DMUs so in my scenario loco hauled stock will be in the minority with the majority of workings being undertaken by Class 105 / 108 DMUs.

 

I've assembled the list such that it will give me scope for a running different set of coaches (as per what I expected happened in reality when DMU failures occurred) but still keeping within the bounds of prototypical operations.

[Marshall5]

Hi Steve, I'm not sure that I'd agree that "most" local workings were DMU in 1961 - that's certainly not my recollection anyway.  I acknowledge that it varied from place to place within the area we're talking about and, while the Bury/Bacups were very early converts, the Liverpool/Rochdales were still steam until, at least, mid1965 when I stopped using them regularly. Some lines such as the Horwich branch went right through to closure without seeing a DMU service.

Cheers,

Ray.