Scenic fiddle yard for a BLT

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, AndyB said:

Interesting ideas and inspiration hope that the various contributors are finding this thread as interesting as I am.  Perhaps it might inspire others to turn their FYs into a further modelling opportunity?!

 

I seem to remember that Battersby Junction was featured in a book about designing layouts for operational use. I'll dig out the reference later.

 

The Seaton Junction idea @Nearholmer and the sketch developed by @Flying Pig seem to be reminiscent of the idea behind Little Muddle - an exquisite piece of modelling.

 

I guess my own preference is more aligned with the Bodmin concept- or the examples proposed by Mike @The Stationmaster that popped up whilst I was typing this in my lunch break.  Perhaps I have an inclination to self-contained things! Mike the invite still stands to come round and play once lockdown permits! 

 

 

Thanks Andy plus I'd best sort the signalling for the other station before you settle on what you want for this one  

 

t-b-g's idea of a sirting sidings is not a bad one but the problem you then face is that you  could finish up with a mixed passenger and freight yard which would be very unusual in a British context when we start talking about sorting or marshalling sidings.  the idea has been used for a number of layouts in the past but i can't think of any layout which has combined the two.  Having them alongside each other, but separate for freight and passenger, was not uncommon but it chews up space laterally depemding really on how extensive t you want them to be.  For freight marshalling you ideally need a minimum of three lines which in the real world allowed some quite extensive remarshalling to be done but small marshalling yards at the end of branch lines were a distinct oddity although they did exist at some comparatively small or minor junctions.

 

Broom junction, with only a couple of sidings for sorting use was a place where at one time some quite interesting remarshalling of freight traffic used to take place - with at times two trains present involved in exchange of traffic.  so you don't need loads of sorting etc sidings to carry out some quite extensive remarshalling.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/broom.htm

Edited June 3, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[Flying Pig]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

t-b-g's idea of a sirting sidings is not a bad one but the problem you then face is that you  could finish up with a mixed passenger and freight yard which would be very unusual in a British context when we start talking about sorting or marshalling sidings.  

 

It's fairly easy to keep the branch passenger separate with minimal facilities representing the branch platform of a junction station (as above), but if you want through running onto the branch of any sort you really need hidden sidings.  Through carriages are just about possible if you can stomach the missing main line train and that the action starts with the branch engine shunting them  (slip coaches perhaps?).

 

BTW a junction station that has interested me since I reread Signalman's Morning recently is Uffington, where the goods working was quite surprising.

[AndyB]

@The Stationmaster - Mike there's plentry of time as I've got to do the scenery on the 16' feet of layout between the Seaside terminus and the FY that is the subject of this thread. But when you're ready the preliminary sketch I showed you has resulted in this....

 

 

The Exmouth station you provided a link for was interesting. I have to say I am inclined to a traditional station as the solution here.

 

I also had a play with some track to see how the sketch I did would pan out. Top left, where the B set is, would be hidden. One of the spurs off the TT might be the programming track. I took out one platforms (top right) so as not to overcrowd things. 

 

 

 

I also had a think about the capacity of the FY/station. We all tend to have more locos than would strictly be necessary, so a place to store the excess - the TT spurs/ engine shed would be useful. Likewise I don't want to avoid the overall layout becoming some kind of shunting puzzle, so perhaps 50% more capacity at the FY station end than the seaside end? 

[DLT]

I like this idea, various prototype stations could be adapted.  Chard Junction for instance, the branch platform was separate, across the station forecourt and connection was via the goods yard.  Dunton Green (Westerham Branch) had the curved branch platform and the sidings were alongside the branch.  There were many others.  

Jas Milham's Yaxbury Branch has been mentioned, where he has modelled the branch platform and exchange sidings, and an offstage connection to the mainline for any interchanges.

Good luck, a very nice project.

Cheers, Dave.

 

PS  Plan of Chard Junction here:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/17208-what-next/

Edited June 3, 2020 by DLT

[Zomboid]

Why do you need to hide the B set? Surely the point of a scenic FY is that you can credibly have the stock which isn't in use on the main layout in a credible setting.

 

A junction with a carriage siding or two, freight exchange sidings and a small loco yard would allow everything not directly in use on the branch to remain in view in a believable manner.

[AndyB]

Hi Zomboid.  

So the way I envisaged the junction - possibly differently from others - is that a train cones in from the branch line (the main layout), draws into the platform and then goes back out onto the it her "branch", represented by a short, hidden siding. This would only really works for short trains due to space restrictions.  In the photo I've shown a B set, but could equally have been the autocoach.  

Where my idea doesn't work is for the longer rakes of coaches hauled by tender locos. Nor really for the type of freight trains where wagons coming off the branch are added to longer freight trains. 

[Zomboid]

So I realise this isn't really what you're after now, but I had a bit of fun messing about with it yesterday evening so I figured I'd share.

Based on the signalling diagram on the SRS website for Lostwithiel Crossing...

It doesn't really reverse that well as just off scene is a facing point to get from the Eastbound main into the exchange sidings, though at least we're talking GWR here who weren't as terrified of the idea as the Midland were. Most of the points are the short code 55 ones other than the one in the Westbound main which is the longer one, and the obvious 3 way & slips which are whatever they are.

 

Most of the action relating to the branch takes place in the top 4 tracks (could add another siding too, but probably not necessary given the sparsity of facilities on the branch). The seaside sunshine special would start an operating session from platform 1, and finish it in platform 2. Other main line trains including the one which drops and collects wagons for the branch in the exchange sidings would have to be imagined, but you've got the entire branch line to play with so let's not be unreasonable... Local freight facilities for this station are off scene to one side or the other.

 

The space in front of the programming track could be used for a loco facility so you can turn the SSS loco.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, AndyB said:

Nor really for the type of freight trains where wagons coming off the branch are added to longer freight trains. 

 

The thing is, pretty much all the wagons on the branch would be running to or from the wider world.  To represent this you need a fiddle yard, either hidden or scenic (a couple of sidings at the junction station would do).  If you aren't worried about realistic freight working, this doesn't matter of course.

 

What you do need to address on your plan is the way the hidden bit of branch is connected.  It really has to run into the main platform with the runround at a 'Y' station like this, not just a bay platform as you have, or trains can't reverse as you describe.  If you look at Bodmin and Barnstaple as linked above, they are both laid out like this.

 

[Nearholmer]

I’ve been looking at the bigger station on my layout, 0 gauge with points that would be equivalent to about 11” radius in N, and that makes clear to me that you actually don’t have a lot of length to play with here ..... 5ft in N, 17ft in 0, although you do have bags of width.
 

Once you have any sort of “throat”, plus platform length, there isn’t really much left, which means that Zomboid’s latest essay is probably the most practical that has been tabled so far, and I think is probably the one I’d opt for, with one more sorting siding at the top, and a double-slip, rather than two points toe-to-toe at the entry to the run-round and sorting sidings.

 

That other thing I’d add to your layout is a substantial goods source on the branch, because it is very ‘thin’ on that side of things. My old favourite, the Seaton branch, was too, but a more interesting model comes from something like a China clay works, which is why the Cornish branches needed more sorting sidings at the junctions, a quarry, a military establishment, anything really to create a traffic flow beyond a dribble of coal, agriculture and general goods.

[Harlequin]

What about a cassette connection near the front of the "scenic FY" so that when stock is away in the rest of the world it is actually physically not present in your model world... (It's stored on shelves somewhere in the room.)

 

In other words, the scene really is fully scenic - a terminus where two lines meet in Y formation, just like Barnstaple Victoria Road, where the backmost Y arm trundles off into your branch line and the frontmost arm to the rest of the world hits the baseboard edge and stops (at the cassette connection point).

 

I know cassettes are something of a marmite suggestion but at least in N it would be easier to store whole trains without the cassettes becoming unmanageable!

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

What about a cassette connection near the front of the "scenic FY" so that when stock is away in the rest of the world it is actually physically not present in your model world... (It's stored on shelves somewhere in the room.)

 

In other words, the scene really is fully scenic - a terminus where two lines meet in Y formation, just like Barnstaple Victoria Road, where the backmost Y arm trundles off into your branch line and the frontmost arm to the rest of the world hits the baseboard edge and stops (at the cassette connection point).

 

I know cassettes are something of a marmite suggestion but at least in N it would be easier to store whole trains without the cassettes becoming unmanageable!

 

This Is probably the best way to go if interchange of traffic is envisaged.  Otherwise I would simply see the other line going off scene and effectively being an equivalent of a 'staging track' ona US layout where at some timn eduring an operating sequence a train emerges from it and later in the sequence a train runs to it.  the staging track idea doesn't necessarily sit w so well with the way we think. British outline layout ought to be operated so the alternative of using cassettes to create an 'changeable' staging track would make sense in the British context.  It really depends on how Andy sees its role in staging/fiddle yard terms. 

 

Answering Andy's question in hs post at the head of this page I would certainly see the scenicked/modelled fiddle yard as offering greater capacity than the original terminus but it does depend in some respects on how he envisages the total layout working.  Incidentally going back many years my local terminus - which was something of an oddity in some respect because it had to cater for seasonal peaks of traffic had a small engine shed and a completely separate turntable with a number of pitted stabling roads off the turntable with both shed and turntable road having access to the water tower.  It was thus in some respects similar to Kingswear although locally all the radial stabling roads were pitted whereas at Kingswear the only pit was in the approach to the turntable.

[DCB]

I thought I posted on here a couple of days ago, did someone delete my post, and if so why?

It seems to me that a traverser and or casette yard is the best solution.

However if the OP wants a second station then there are some good suggestions above.

However to my mind a scenic fiddle yard is not a station. It looks like a station but operationally all moves should take place within the Fiddle area and not impinge on the scenic part especially the bridge.

Hence my Anyrail design.  Could look like a small Bath Green Park. Overall roof etc.  The three way point is because Peco don't do a Code 55  20 ,Y  Long  (up to 5 coach Trains arrive, locos is released to depot without leaving FY area coaches remain in the platform.   Auto Train arrives at platform already occupied by B set stock and then goes and hides in the goods yard or loco depot.    Goods trains of loco + 12 wagons arrives sets tail back into A or B road and shunts either with train loco or shunter. Departures start with tail in A or B drawn out by shunter train loco comes off shed.  I wouldn't suggest it as a station as half the fun is removing ECC from platforms to Carriage sidings and releasing locos to shed for which you need a decent length of line as a headshunt, and trains shunting onto the bridge will look odd.

 

The Harbour terminus looks very short of siding space. I would add at least one siding and delete the kick back as they are a real nuisance to shunt.

 

[Nearholmer]

There might be a way of meeting a desire to ‘disappear’ wagons and coaches while remaining fully scenic: scenic cassettes.

 

I’m imagining a shallow trough containing, say, three sidings, of fully ballasted track, with scenic cutting sides (only about 6ft scale high) on either side, say about 3ft long, which is quite decent in N.

 

The entire tray would lift out (footbridge across the yard to act as a handle?) and be replaced with one of several identical ones.

 

A pair of track between straight platform faces would be another, perhaps easier, way to hide the joins, and the footbridge could be a covered one, making a perfect handle.

 

US modellers sometimes use “car floats” to do this, but that would only work for Britain if you modelled Harwich or Dover I think!

Edited June 4, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 the staging track idea doesn't necessarily sit w so well with the way we think. British outline layout ought to be operated

I think for this kind of idea to work to its full potential the traditional British view of having some unadorned plywood representing the rest of the world needs to be put to one side.

 

If we can make that kind of mental leap and decide to operate a junction station whilst certain movements are happening, whilst other moves are either not modelled or are done via the great hand from the sky then it would allow a load of possibilities to be realised which British modellers have been denying themselves by sticking to the traditional "terminus to FY" template.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with the usual way of doing things, it has after all brought a lot of people a lot of pleasure over the years.

 

And it would be easier in this case if the OP had planned it this way from the start

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

There might be a way of meeting a desire to ‘disappear’ wagons and coaches while remaining fully scenic: scenic cassettes.

 

I’m imagining a shallow trough containing, say, three sidings, of fully ballasted track, with scenic cutting sides (only about 6ft scale high) on either side, say about 3ft long, which is quite decent in N.

 

I don't see how this is better than a conventional hidden fiddle yard, as you're still left with a diverse collection of trains standing side by side unrealistically.  If you want to maintain the illusion of a railway, you'll need to remove each train as it arrives and replace it with an empty scenic casette.  In this case, the cassettes would be better representing just a section of running line - single or double track as appropriate - that looks convincing when unoccupied by a train*.

 

I can see the attraction for maximising the scenic area of a small layout, but it involves quite a lot of cassette-slinging.  It's also sort of cheating as you still have an offscene fiddle yard in the form of cassette storage.

 

*it would of course be easier to use a Peco loco lift (or multiples thereof) sitting on a fixed scenic section of track.  Unfortunately this option is not available in N.

[Zomboid]

Here's today's lockdown lunch break sketch.

It's kind of based around the SRS diagram of Padstow, with the junction arrangement from Bodmin General. There's space in front for some of the other sidings from Padstow, but the space isn't long enough for Padstow's goods yard to be properly done behind the platform. The Goods Shed is to emphasise that this is not an "Autotrain to the Bay" cliche, but actually it wouldn't matter too much if it was. In fact the branch train could be marshalled into it whilst the Super Seaside Sunshine Special is using the main platform. Just signal it as a departure only platform and create some work for yourself operating it.

You could make more of the turntable too, if you so wished.

 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

I don't see how this is better than a conventional hidden fiddle yard, as you're still left with a diverse collection of trains standing side by side unrealistically

 

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

I can see the attraction for maximising the scenic area of a small layout, but it involves quite a lot of cassette-slinging.  It's also sort of cheating as you still have an offscene fiddle yard in the form of cassette storage.

 

 

FP

 

The thread has surfaced two contradicting desires: to have a scenic FY; and, to "disappear" goods wagons and the through passenger train periodically.

 

I don't mind cheating to do it.

 

Herewith an extract of Zomboid's plan of yesterday, with a scenic cassette as the main-line platform roads. 97% of the time, there are no trains on this cassette.

 

 

When the "seaside special" arrives from London/Birmingham/Manchester, we swap the cassette for one with the coaches of that train on it. We shunt our branch loco on, couple-up, and after due ceremony we depart to the seaside. Cassette empty.

 

A bit later, the through goods is due on the main, so we swap for a cassette containing that. The loco duly detaches the cut of wagons for the branch and puts them in the exchange siding, collects the outgoing cut and adds them to the train waiting on the main, and we swap the cassette for an empty one.

 

If our through goods can't be left clogging-up the busy main while it shunts, we could draw it forward onto the branch, tuck it into one of our sidings, shunt, then reverse out onto the main (=cassette).

 

It is a lot of "cassette slinging" for the odd through traffic, and personally I wouldn't bother, I'd leave the coaches for the seaside special in one main platform, and a permanently stationary through goods in the other, trains do stand in stations after all, but it might satisfy those who desire to "disappear" things.

 

And, as a sort of PS: the thought that passenger carriages never got stabled next to goods sorting sidings simply doesn't ring true with me. There were numerous places where there were carriage and goods sidings next to one another (usually specific sidings for each, admittedly), and in some places things got truly anarchic and passenger coaches were actually short-term stabled within goods yards. Padstow was quite respectable, in having a road that was used to store passenger carriages beside the goods yard, and I think that road was used at other times to marshall fish trains. If you look through the images here http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/p/padstow/ you will see all sorts of "un-prototypical" things going on, including a rake of passenger coaches stabled across the locomotive turntable!

 

Kevin

Edited June 4, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Chimer]

There comes to mind a more general application of @Nearholmer's idea, as part of a more conventional terminus-to-rest-of-the-world arrangement.  Instead of the conventional fiddle yard or cassettes beyond a tunnel mouth or similar, use the sceniced (which is really just ballasted) single or double track cassette alongside or between one or two platforms of an (apparently) through station, which could otherwise be fully developed with a goods yard or whatever.  Easiest to operate if it was single track on the baseboard edge side of a single platform, with the goods yard behind - the cassette could just be pulled towards you, rather than lifted.  In 00 3/4 coaches on the cassette and the loco handled separately using a loco lift would be the sensible max, but in N you could cope with some reasonably chunky trains …..

[Nearholmer]

The "slide towards" idea is certainly better for 00 gauge, and might even work for short trains in 0.

 

Given the choice, I'd rather look at a station leading to an over-bridge (as scenic break) than at a typical fiddle-yard. Could be very narrow too, station on a shelf, with shelves above and/or below for cassettes. May develop some sort of "pallet forks" with a flip-down lid to reduce the risk of disaster when moving the cassettes.

 

A lot depends upon your "pace of operation" though. It would be right chore operating something like Minories at full-tilt this way, but it would work well for a sleepy branch-line.

 

I might even start a new thread to develop ideas around this and see if anyone is brave enough to try it. We could call it the NC-cassette system (Nearholmer-Chimer). Best made from aluminium?

[Zomboid]

20 hours ago, Harlequin said:

What about a cassette connection near the front of the "scenic FY" so that when stock is away in the rest of the world it is actually physically not present in your model world... (It's stored on shelves somewhere in the room.)

 

In other words, the scene really is fully scenic - a terminus where two lines meet in Y formation, just like Barnstaple Victoria Road, where the backmost Y arm trundles off into your branch line and the frontmost arm to the rest of the world hits the baseboard edge and stops (at the cassette connection point).

 

I know cassettes are something of a marmite suggestion but at least in N it would be easier to store whole trains without the cassettes becoming unmanageable!

 

I'm finding this challenge quite fun...

To stay within the bounds of this scene the curve to the cassette connection is 12" radius. I don't know much about N gauge, but that seems to be about 3rd radius in the Peco set track range, so I'm assuming most rolling stock is going to be OK negotiating it.

Otherwise a pretty conventional BLT. The run round should be fine for a 4 coach train.

 

Could the cassette come into the operating space at about 90*? Probably a bit impractical.

 

Add whatever sidings and loco facilities you like in front of the station, but I'd have at least two as interchange tracks. I think this kind of place could justify two platforms, so have the branch train arrive, run round and then shunt across to the other one, so it can connect with the main line train. Alternatively it could be use to stable the SSS carriages whilst the punters are enjoying the rain lashing down on them at the other end of the line.

[Harlequin]

I must admit I imagined the connection being angled so that cassettes don't project so much into the room.

 

If the area is fully scenic then the scenic break isn't needed and the station could perhaps extend into the existing layout area slightly to gain a bit of extra length for this relatively major station.

 

[Chimer]

57 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

 

Could the cassette come into the operating space at about 90*? Probably a bit impractical.

 

 

 

If the left-most point was left-hand or Y, I think you'd get the right angle connection OK?

[Zomboid]

I had it as a LH originally. If the top platform is only accessible from the branch then that allows a significantly longer station.

 

I hadn't considered the Y point though, but getting the right angle connection exactly right wasn't critical, I just wanted to see if a tight curve could get to a reasonable cassette connection, and I think I've shown that it could.

 

To be at a shallower angle the connection would have to be much further along, making the station probably too short, unless it all bleeds into the existing scenic area. Which isn't such a dreadful idea actually, the main line could be following the river with that spectacular bridge. There's no need for any scenic break in that scenario, and shunting taking place towards/on the bridge would be realistic.

 

Of my contributions to this thread I would probably go with the one where I ripped off Lostwithiel, and have the 2 tracks (including the programming track) curving off the front of the board to follow the river valley.

[AndyB]

Afternoon all. 

And firstly apologies for not having commented since earlier yesterday. Busy day in the office. And today I've was getting my eldest involved in the layout by getting her to apply grass over the scenic board. 

 

Secondly a specific mention for @DavidCBroad who asked if  an earlier post of his had been deleted? Not to my knowledge. I have heard on other threads that folk have seen their posts mysteriously and annoyingly disappear into cyberspace. Perhaps this is what happened. Whatever the  cause, many thanks indeed for your offering. Ithe conjured up a particular favourite scene of mine in the Titfield Thunderbolt where the gallant little engine finally makes it to the big terminus eliciting whistles of approval from the other engines. 

 

Mike @The Stationmaster asked how I envisaged operating the layout. I'd suggest the safe answer - and deferring to my learned friend - is "non prototypically"!

 

Having previously created a gritty urban layout, where there was precious little room to run a train, I had a hankering to create something where there was room to breathe. I'd previously done this with a OO layout (Nantford Spinney) and found creating the scenery to be the enjoyable bit. 

 

So for me seeing a variety of passenger and goods trains trundling through a rural scene ticks the boxes right now. 

 

I fully understand where people are saying that the goods facilities at the harbour station are quite minimal. I'd agree, but r me it's as much about watching these trains go along the line as operational movements. 

 

I can see the merits of the various junction designs that have been proposed. I have to say that @Zomboid's earliest lockdown lunchtime layout is in tune with what I have in mind. Did one variant look like a mirror of Swanage and Bodmin? Bondage Junction, perhaps! 

 

And to @Harlequin's question about marmite. On toast, yes. My feeling about cassettes is that they're not really for me. The thought of marrying up tracks in N gauge is one to avoid. 

 

It may be that by creating a 2nd station instead of a traditional FY that I've alighted on an end to end layout by accident; a fine result. 

 

I'm delighted that others have - and are - finding this an interesting thread. Andy

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

17 hours ago, AndyB said:

I can see the merits of the various junction designs that have been proposed. I have to say that @Zomboid's earliest lockdown lunchtime layout is in tune with what I have in mind. Did one variant look like a mirror of Swanage and Bodmin? Bondage Junction, perhaps

This one?

That's mostly Padstow with a sprinkling of Bodmin General, though if you make the goods shed into a bay platform and have a track behind it with a GS on then that'll add some Swanage to the mix.