Small loop and a shelf layout ideas

[Reg81]

With the prospect of a long locked down winter, I’ve returned to model railways for the first time since I was a teenager and I’m planning my first ‛grown up’ layout, albeit still quite a small one, in 00. Access issues mean I have a slightly odd space to fill along the back wall of the loft - sort of a ‛fat bottom L’, with a lump at one end and a shelf stretching over from the top corner. This gives me space for a small loop, say 4x4 and then a shelf layout coming off the corner of it – say 6 - 8 x 1 - 2. I am thinking of a simple loop for a runaround and to give a little bit of depth and landscape, then a straight run to a terminus or mini-fiddle yard, via one or two shunting problem type arrangements on the way. I’m still working out the shelf layout arrangements particularly – there must be something more interesting that can fill the shelf, but does something like this look worthwhile to people, and how would you improve it?

 

There’s something about the chocolate box idyll of a lot of railway buildings that’s not for me, so I’m aiming at something a bit more postwar, urban, gritty, concrete – basically the concept is a corner of a new town c.1970. Think maisonettes, questionable modernist shopping parades, industrial estates, cheerless blocky houses, that sort of stuff – a mini tribute to soulless town planning.

 

I fancy a bit of scenery modelling primarily and given the space constraints mean I’m going for a single line for most of it, perhaps (hand waves) historically a branch line that was co-opted as a suburban passenger and light industry route for the new town (as an experiment to show how rail still had a role in the world of the car) and somehow escaped the Beeching axe (who knows, marginal constituency perhaps?), but is in decline. I might go for the edge of a pretty village and a reduced-to-one-platform-countryside station at the far end of the layout as a point of contrast, but you can bet the locals never wanted the new town built. In terms of operations – short diesel goods trains running to a few local industries that have hung on to rail delivery somehow, 2 car DMUs, a bit of shunting and perhaps a Class 25 or something pulling a couple grim looking Mk1s on days when the DMU has broken down.

 

Any bright ideas?

 

Cheers

Reg81

 

[Dungrange]

Welcome to RMWeb.

 

Do you have any scope to widen the shelf part of the layout where your diagram says 'Truck 'parking'', as this might allow you to have an out and back style layout rather than a branch line connected to a circle?  That would therefore permit a train to leave your 'village backdrop' station and return without stopping and reversing.

 

The problem that I see with the current track plan is that for any locomotive hauled train leaving your 'village backdrop' station, once it enters the circle, there is nowhere to run round for the return journey other than using the loop with your 'small factory', which doesn't look long enough to accommodate a Class 25 and a couple of Mark 1 coaches.

 

My other comments would be:

Do you have access to the corner hill with tunnel from the left?  If not, it's probably a rather big stretch from the grey shaded area, which I presume is where you would intend to operate from.

 

The platform at the 'village backdrop' station seems rather too short for passenger trains.  Assuming these are the Hornby type that you've shown, each segment is about 6 1/2 inches and you've shown three, which means you have little more than 18" for the platforms.  For a locomotive hauled train, whilst you may just fit two coaches into that, the locomotive certainly wont.  A two car DMU will be a rather tight fit, so I'd lengthen the platform by one foot.

 

I'd also merge the two platform tracks closer to the platform, to possibly lengthen the sidings labelled 'Truck 'parking''.

 

I'm sure others will be along to post their opinions.

[Reg81]

Thanks, that's helpful - gauging the 'how big is too big or too small' thing isn't something I'm doing well in my mind to be honest!

 

There's leeway in pretty much all the dimensions apart from the 4ft corner width and I had wondered about adding a return connecting to where the 'truck parking' is - I hadn't thought too much about the operational bonus though - thanks.

 

The top corner (possible tunnel) is the only accessibility problem I foresee, it is a bit of a stretch, but I thought about making the tunnel lift-able and living with the occasional inconvenience of a derail, if all else fails I might not tunnel there and go for something else.

 

Cheers

 

Reg

[RobinofLoxley]

People sometimes forget but in a tight space use of first radius curves may be possible - I think some of the locos you might use like a 25 or possibly a 20 with the wheels they have may be able to navigate them. Opens up some more possibilities.

[Dungrange]

9 hours ago, Reg81 said:

The top corner (possible tunnel) is the only accessibility problem I foresee, it is a bit of a stretch, but I thought about making the tunnel lift-able and living with the occasional inconvenience of a derail, if all else fails I might not tunnel there and go for something else.

 

When thinking through accessibility issues, there is a need to consider the layout height.  The lower the layout, the further you can stretch to reach a derailment.  For a layout below my waist level (ie around 900 mm from the floor), I can stretch around 850 mm.  Raise the layout height to my chest (ie around 1.2 m from the floor) and I can only stretch around 700 mm.  The difference is that when the layout is lower, I'd be bending from the waist, whereas if higher, I'm simply relying on the length of my arm.  It's also worthwhile highlighting that scenery has an impact too.  Whilst I can stretch around 700 mm over a layout set at a height of 1.2 m, if that layout were to have tall buildings or trees in the line I'm reaching across, then the distance I can stretch is less, as I need to bend my arm to avoid damaging trees, buildings, signals etc.

 

What you may be able to do is arrange a small access hole in the centre of your circle, which you can access from underneath.  You'd then place some scenic item to cover this, such as a shopping centre.  This could be removable, and then you could crawl under the board and reach up from below.  This isn't just to handle a derailment, but also to clean the track.

[OhOh]

Here are my efforts at getting a longer passing loop, and also making "out-and-back" possible:

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by OhOh
wrong image uploaded

[Reg81]

Wow that is a much better arrangement than I have managed! Is that a mix of 1st and 2nd radius curves? 

 

Cheers

[OhOh]

2 hours ago, Reg81 said:

Wow that is a much better arrangement than I have managed! Is that a mix of 1st and 2nd radius curves? 

 

Cheers

Thanks v much.

 

Everything is R2.

 

I've had another play-around and come-up with these which move the passing loop nearer to where you'll be operating from and so would allow the tunnel you mentioned.

 

One has a single line entry/exit from./to the terminal station, the other is with the entry/exit on separate lines - clearer in the pic than in words  

 

One also uses R3 on the platform loop which should help looks-wise.

 

Gra 

 

 

[PatB]

I have an old Mainline Peak which grinds its way around R1 curves quite reliably, if not terribly cheerfully. On that basis I would expect pretty much any Bo-Bo or 1st Gen DMU to cope if you use R1 where it's not going to show too much. 

[Harlequin]

Hi Reg,

 

Have you considered using more prototypical looking track for your layout? E.g. Peco Streamline?

Lengths and curve radii would be more constraining - i.e. you would get less into the space and you wouldn't be able to have a loop in the head of your tadpole but it would look more "grown up", as you put it.

Since you say you're into the scenery more maybe that would still work for you?

 

4ft is generally considered to be too far to reach across. Remember that when you put your hand down you will inevitably be degrading some bit of scenery and your clothes will be catching the little details at the front.

 

Most stock these days is made to work on R2 curves. You see it stated on the boxes. (There are exceptions like the beautiful little Pecketts and their like.) Curves less than that radius will be a pain when you want to run some new stock and find it derails, locks buffers or needs to be modified to run on your layout...

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Harlequin

[Flying Pig]

3 hours ago, OhOh said:

 

 

 

 

 

I think on balance I prefer the passing loop and second station on the left of the circuit as this separates it from the terminus better.  However, I like the way the loco sidings are on the terminus side of the junction in this version.  Operationally of course it means loco shunts don't block the circuit, but it also shows that the loco depot belongs to the terminus rather than floating on its own.

 

Two lines from the terminus to the triangle will also probably look better.  I'd suggest a single island platform with a runround on the bottom road and goods sidings kicking back towards the junction from the loop.  Ideally both facing and trailing crossovers between the main lines, but this depends on space.

[OhOh]

Things tend to get a little messy when I fiddle with Streamline, but I can just about get a loop by juggling Setrack R2 (there's 1 R3) and bits of flexi. But then I lost either the factory or loco sidings due lack of space, and things do get rather close to the edges of the board.

 

Points are SLE91's and 92's and an SLE97 Y.

 

Anyway, for what it's worth, here it is:

 

Gra

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by OhOh
Added point info.

[OhOh]

8 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

I think on balance I prefer the passing loop and second station on the left of the circuit as this separates it from the terminus better. 

I agree, although that'd probably preclude the tunnel that @Reg81 was wanting.

 

It's fun (well, to me at least ) to see how things can be moved and re-jigged to fit within the limited space. The terminus with industry sidings and out-and-back could make a really interesting layout to operate. 

 

Gra

[Reg81]

Thanks guys, I’m finding these responses really helpful – good to find a nice forum for once.

 

I’ve got a stack of Hornby track already so I thought I’d use that to begin with.

 

I really like the idea of an out and back from the loop, the operational possibilities seem more fun so that’s a must have. The corner access needs a bit of thought and experiment from me, the access hole underneath is possible, I could shave the top far corner off as it’s wasted space at the moment anyway… though not sure I’m that flexible!

 

It is quite surprising how many different ways there are of arranging this in a small space, and I haven’t even figured out what’s happening on the shelf in any detail!

[Flying Pig]

25 minutes ago, Reg81 said:

It is quite surprising how many different ways there are of arranging this in a small space, and I haven’t even figured out what’s happening on the shelf in any detail!

 

I was imagining something simple like the following, but Colchester St Botolphs also comes to mind (signal plans for  1957 and 1958).

 

[Zomboid]

6 hours ago, OhOh said:

And now just stick Minories on the end and we're done here.

[Zomboid]

I went for it with both Minories:

 

and St Boltophs

 

The total site is 11' long in both instances, as you said you had 6-8' for the pan handle bit.

 

Either would be fun, if you ask me. A 4 axle loco and 2 bogie carriages is about the limit, but this isn't a big space. If you were running tank engines and 4 wheel carriages it would be more like 4 carriage trains.

[OhOh]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I went for it with both Minories:

 

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

and St Boltophs

Both look good and interesting. Although @Reg81 says he has a lot of Hornby pieces to use so wonder if they'd still work?

 

Gra

[Zomboid]

The circuit parts are sectional track (Peco in Anyrail, but they are pretty interchangeable), but it is streamline in the station area. Might make it unsuitable, but I still enjoyed drawing them.

[OhOh]

19 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The circuit parts are sectional track (Peco in Anyrail, but they are pretty interchangeable), but it is streamline in the station area. Might make it unsuitable, but I still enjoyed drawing them.

I'm slowly coming to the realisation that I find the planning much more fun than the actual construction. Likely down to the endless possibilities and problem solving opportunities that planning offers - that or just a plain and simple fear of commitment - but that's probably for another discussion elsewhere 

 

Gra

[Reg81]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

and St Boltophs

 

 

By Jove, I think this might be it! Ok, need to get a few bits of extra track (that was inevitable anyway) and possibly switch a few bits to Hornby, but I will probably start botching this together at the weekend and seeing how it works in practice - thanks for suggestions, good team effort! 

[OhOh]

Great!

 

Hope all goes well and I'll look forward to seeing your progress if you choose to share.

 

BTW, I used Peco Setrack in my plans but can redo using Hornby and send you the parts list if you want.

 

Gra

[Flying Pig]

3 minutes ago, Reg81 said:

By Jove, I think this might be it! Ok, need to get a few bits of extra track (that was inevitable anyway) and possibly switch a few bits to Hornby, but I will probably start botching this together at the weekend and seeing how it works in practice - thanks for suggestions, good team effort! 

 

To be pedantic, this isn't St Botolphs, which has a single platform face (in fact, Zomboid's layout is pretty much identical to my earlier generic sketch). However it has the advantage over a more accurate rendition of St B. that a passenger train can work the upper platform while a freight shunts and runs round, so has considerably more operating potential.

 

And much a much better fit to here than Yet Another Minories imo. Fun layout in the making!

[Zomboid]

In that case, be aware that the straights on the triangle are drawn with flexible track, as is the entirety of the station area.

 

Also be aware that as drawn the pan handle bit is 7x1'. If you can stretch it to 8' long and a little bit wider then the end result will be better.

[Zomboid]

6 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

Zomboid's layout is pretty much identical to my earlier generic sketch)

Yeah, I misread your post, thought it was based on St B, and based the Anyrail layout on your pencil sketch.

 

Anyway it is a decidedly better fit than Minories in this instance.