Flat Earth

[AndyID]

Of course a lot of this depends on how you define "flat". Presumably lines that join points on the surface are straight. Light travels in straight lines even when matter distorts space/time which tends to muck the whole concept up slightly.

[maico]

6 minutes ago, AndyID said:

Of course a lot of this depends on how you define "flat". Presumably lines that join points on the surface are straight. Light travels in straight lines even when matter distorts space/time which tends to muck the whole concept up slightly.

 

Nope, Airlines like to fly the shortest distance between 2 points which is the great circle route

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance

[Gibbo675]

2 minutes ago, AndyID said:

Of course a lot of this depends on how you define "flat". Presumably lines that join points on the surface are straight. Light travels in straight lines even when matter distorts space/time which tends to muck the whole concept up slightly.

Hi Andy,

 

Light does not travel in straight lines it is bent by the effects of gravity. Conveniently, the Earth's gravity bends the light at the same rate at which the Earth curves, this includes the lasers that measure the Earth, or if you are old school the light that enters the scope of a theodolite.

 

This is without the effects of temperature inversion that can affect the path of light over large distances. Below is Chicago form about 60miles distant.

 

 

Gibbo.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Why is the North Pole colder than the rest of the Flat Earth? Indeed why any temperature variations other than due to altitude?

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

 

Light does not travel in straight lines it is bent by the effects of gravity. 

 

 

 

That is genuinely interesting. How is something that does not have mass affected by gravity?

[AndyID]

6 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Andy,

 

Light does not travel in straight lines it is bent by the effects of gravity. Conveniently, the Earth's gravity bends the light at the same rate at which the Earth curves, this includes the lasers that measure the Earth, or if you are old school the light that enters the scope of a theodolite.

 

 

 

 

 

Then it should also bend the light returning to me so I can see beyond the horizon. Come to think of it there wouldn't be a horizon.

[Kickstart]

13 minutes ago, maico said:

 

Nope, Airlines like to fly the shortest distance between 2 points which is the great circle route

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance

And a not fun to navigate as your heading continuously changes 

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Talltim]

Light being attracted by mass/gravity is the whole concept behind black holes

[AndyID]

3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

That is genuinely interesting. How is something that does not have mass affected by gravity?

 

The "cop out" is that mass distorts space/time (which is proven by experiments) but what exactly space/time is remains to be seen. See "gravitational lensing".

[maico]

One thing Flatardians get repeatedly wrong is the effect of light refraction over large bodies of water. In practice, this means you can sometimes see things that are over the geometric horizon. They are loomed over the horizon because of an air temperature gradient above the water, not because the Earth is flat.

See if you can spot why the lookouts on the Titanic who had good vision, had difficulties seeing the iceberg in time during a Winter temperature inversion...

 

https://aty.sdsu.edu/mirages/mirsims/loom/loom.html

Edited November 11, 2020 by maico

[Gibbo675]

9 minutes ago, Talltim said:

Light being attracted by mass/gravity is the whole concept behind black holes

Black holes don't follow the laws of thermodynamics, off topic though !

[Alex TM]

None of my friends would believe me if I told them a Railway Modelling website was hosting a discussion covering quantum mechanics, astrophysics, and complex mathematics all at the same time.  This forum routinely throws up some truly wonderful, and bizarre, threads.

 

PS.  I was taught why/how gravity affects light but it was a long time ago and I cannot remember the explanation.

[AndyID]

I admit I was being a bit controversial, but consider this:

 

If you are in the vicinity of a massive object and you project a laser beam in any direction (there will have to be some dust or something to let you see the beam) the beam will appear to be dead straight. But spacetime is distorted by the massive object so the laser beam cannot be dead straight, so is it straight or isn't it?

 

And the same situation applies on Earth except that the effect is extremely small. What appears "flat" to us isn't even if we confirm that it is with light beams.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by AndyID
missing preposition

[Canal Digger]

1 hour ago, steve W said:

Some years ago when I had a day job involved with large ocean going ships, we had a technician who was employed to travel from ship to ship to fix control problems, carry out minor mods and such like.  He was a very clever chap, but a true eccentric i.e. it wasn't just for show. For example, whilst he was working back in the office, we returned from lunch one day to find him standing on his head, propped up against a filing cabinet. To the obvious question of 'Why?' the answer was that he 'wanted to get a different perspective on the problem'.  He was also a fully paid up member of the Flat Earth Society.

I noted that he was clever,  this was demonstrated during one of his voyages (300,000ton tanker) at about 2:00 am one morning when the ship's skipper heard a lot of noise in the wheelhouse above is bedroom. Investigating, 'Cyril' was in full flight with drawings and confident calculations 'proving' to the 2nd mate, the ship's navigator,  that the Earth was flat. I understand there was an abrupt termination of the discussion. 'Cyril' was sent home in disgrace from the next port for trying to indoctrinate the navigator and a telex to personnel from the skipper noting he would never allow 'that man' to step aboard his ship again.

 

re cars on Lundy, there is a 4x4 Ford Ranger Fire Engine (and a couple of tractors), everytime the helicopter/ light aircraft come and go they have to get it out.

 

There is also the remains of a Tramway system on Lundy. 

https://lfs-resources.s3.amazonaws.com/ar16/LFS_Annual_Report_Vol_16_Part_22.pdf

 

If you want a cheep (working) holiday, I recommend that you book yourself onto a National Trust Workparty Holiday there:

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/holidays/working-holidays/a-week-with-the-lundy-island-ranger-march/20atz116

[Ray Von]

So, adding cats to pigeons and a can of worms - does anyone think that the "ultimate layout" might one day be possible? 

 

An artificial "Eden Project" style environment, a miniature Flat Earth - an orbiting self sufficient contained lump of Terra Firma, be it a town, village or entirely consisting of farm land.  Science fiction, or Elon Musk's next dalliance...?

[Gibbo675]

2 minutes ago, Ray Von said:

So, adding cats to pigeons and a can of worms - does anyone think that the "ultimate layout" might one day be possible? 

 

An artificial "Eden Project" style environment, a miniature Flat Earth - an orbiting self sufficient contained lump of Terra Firma, be it a town, village or entirely consisting of farm land.  Science fiction, or Elon Musk's next dalliance...?

Hi Ray,

 

Buckminster Fuller proposed floating dome like cities, he also developed the Dymaxion map projection which is the most accurate flat projection of Earth.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_map

 

I like the fact that you can peel off a triangle and reattach it to the bit on the other side and it continues as it ought to.

 

Gibbo.

[Allegheny1600]

Goodness sake!

have none of these so_called “flat earthers” been to the seaside?

It’s pretty darn easy to discern the curvature of the earth just by looking at the sea but if you observe a ship near the horizon, it’s blatantly obvious.

Never mind satellites, the ancient Greeks knew both that the earth was round and orbited the sun, thousands of years ago.

They even calculated the earth’s orbit so people who can’t accept the earth being round, don’t deserve the oxygen of publicity in my opinion.

[Edwin_m]

9 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Goodness sake!

have none of these so_called “flat earthers” been to the seaside?

It’s pretty darn easy to discern the curvature of the earth just by looking at the sea but if you observe a ship near the horizon, it’s blatantly obvious.

Never mind satellites, the ancient Greeks knew both that the earth was round and orbited the sun, thousands of years ago.

They even calculated the earth’s orbit so people who can’t accept the earth being round, don’t deserve the oxygen of publicity in my opinion.

They can explain horizon effects as something to do with atmospheric refraction.

 

Not sure about the oxygen of publicity, most of them probably don't believe oxygen exists either.  

[Gibbo675]

5 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Goodness sake!

have none of these so_called “flat earthers” been to the seaside?

It’s pretty darn easy to discern the curvature of the earth just by looking at the sea but if you observe a ship near the horizon, it’s blatantly obvious.

Never mind satellites, the ancient Greeks knew both that the earth was round and orbited the sun, thousands of years ago.

They even calculated the earth’s orbit so people who can’t accept the earth being round, don’t deserve the oxygen of publicity in my opinion.

Hi There,

 

You do realise that the material objective reality does not actually have to represent itself to the conscious mind in the same way as might do in the etheric subjective reality.

 

Granted that is more a philosophy of the East Prussian thinking via the auspices of Arthur Schopenhauer rather than all that Greek stuff.

 

Having read the comments it would seem that it is the materialists that have the most vitriol when referencing the shape of the Earth, hardly philosophical about it all are they !?!?

 

Gibbo.

[Ray Von]

20 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi There,

 

You do realise that the material objective reality does not actually have to represent itself to the conscious mind in the same way as might do in the etheric subjective reality.

 

Granted that is more a philosophy of the East Prussian thinking via the auspices of Arthur Schopenhauer rather than all that Greek stuff.

 

Having read the comments it would seem that it is the materialists that have the most vitriol when referencing the shape of the Earth, hardly philosophical about it all are they !?!?

 

Gibbo.

Well said, 

I'm in no way a Flat Earth advocate, and I'm a born and bred seasider -

I'm lucky to have the horizon right on my doorstep.  But I'm pretty sure none of us (on this forum) have been into space, or low Earth atmosphere.  We know what we know from school and / or higher education but isn't it nice to at least ponder other points of view, to suspend disbelief if only to stretch ones mental muscles.  I believe the Earth is round but God bless the dreamers. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Ray Von
Typo

[Gibbo675]

Just now, Ray Von said:

Well said, 

I'm in no way a Flat Earth advocate, and I'm a born and bred seasider - and I'm lucky to have the horizon right on my doorstep.  But I'm pretty sure none of us have been into space, or low Earth atmosphere.  We know what we know from school and / or higher education but isn't it nice to at least ponder other points of view, to suspend disbelief if only to stretch ones mental muscles.  I believe the Earth is round but God bless the dreamers. 

Hi Ray,

 

It is good to know that I am not the only student of the Zetetic path, there is much to unlearn !

 

Gibbo.

[Ray Von]

5 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Ray,

 

It is good to know that I am not the only student of the Zetetic path, there is much to unlearn !

 

Gibbo.

I don't follow a belief, but I never question anyone elses belief either.  If it harms no one and if it brings comfort, then live and let live.  

[PatB]

22 hours ago, ardbealach said:

Now getting back to model railways..  Model railways, in the main, tend to be set out on dead flat boards - which, of course, follow the beliefs of the Flat Earthers.  It set me thinking...    to ensure we get the accuracy and detail correct, should we not be using convex shaped baseboards?   The only problem might be free wheeling rolling stock running away all the time.  Or is this accuracy in the detail only for P4 and EM modellers?  (AM) 

Well, I've seen a few baseboards that appeared designed to fit the "hollow Earth" fallacy. 

[Guest]

A flat Earth simulator has appeared on Steam...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1397620/Flat_Earth_Simulator/

[maico]

22 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Goodness sake!

have none of these so_called “flat earthers” been to the seaside?

It’s pretty darn easy to discern the curvature of the earth just by looking at the sea but if you observe a ship near the horizon, it’s blatantly obvious.

Never mind satellites, the ancient Greeks knew both that the earth was round and orbited the sun, thousands of years ago.

They even calculated the earth’s orbit so people who can’t accept the earth being round, don’t deserve the oxygen of publicity in my opinion.

 

Actually, You can't see curvature looking out to sea at the horizon with the naked eye. You can from photos though. Take images with a standard lens that has little or no optical distortion, level the tripod carefully, and take 3 or 4 photos in a pan. Then stitch them together in photoshop. Lay a grid over the image and you can just about see curvature. Compress the image horizontally and it becomes more obvious.

Ships disappearing from the bottom up is rather more obvious.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by maico