Choice of sound decoder for Heljan mogul.

[Stringfingerling]

I hope this is the appropriate forum; obviously it could be in the DCC forums.  
I've just ordered a Heljan mogul and, when I've had a chance to check it is all ok with DC I shall fit a suitable sound decoder.   The model comes with a board ready to accept a Loksound decoder.  My other models all have Zimo decoders.  Several people on RMWeb have written of using Zimos in this model. Here are some of my considerations:
1) I am reasonably competent with a soldering iron, but I'm not looking for more work in this area than necessary.  

2) Given that the model relies on tender only pickup I'm interested in the idea of adding a reasonably good stay-alive to assist with reliable slow running.
3) The Zimo decoder advised by YouChoos requires an addtional booster to support the current draw of the Heljan motor.  
I'm completely open-minded about this though my experience with the Zimo decoders I already have has been very good.
I'd very much welcome opinions/ advice about which to choose. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Stringfingerling
spelling

[Adrian Stevenson]

I will be able to tell you more tomorrow as I have just had a Loksound decoder arrived today for mine from Charlie Petty.

 

I must say on DC it will crawl very slowly and there are no issues with the tender only pick up's, so I have not worried about adding a stay alive to mine ( I do fit them to my tank engines though.)

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

 

[GWR57xx]

I am also in the market for a sound decoder for this engine. I believe the Loksound V5 L is a drop in and has stay alives built in. There are a couple of choices of sound project, so waiting for Ade’s review of the DC Kits version before committing.

[Simond]

I have no Heljan locos, but all my 7mm stock has standard Zimo or ESU “H0” decoders.  There’s quite a bit recently in my Garratt thread, using a Zimo 644 with an ESU Adaptorplatine, and a whopping great stay alive cap.  This is happily running two conventional motors which I purchased from Taff Vale Models.

 

Regarding tender pick up, my scratchbuilt 28xx also has tender pickup, a Zimo chip, and an ABC gearbox with Canon motor.  I have no issues with pickup though it does have a KA cap.

 

by chance both locos have split axle pickup - might be a moral in there, though I guess it doesn’t help in your case.!

 

you might try measuring the stall current of your loco - just connect an ammeter in series with your analog supply, and drive your unchipped loco up to the buffers & stop, then progressively increase the throttle setting until the wheels spin, whilst watching the ammeter - the peak current will be just before the wheels spin.  You can compare this with the ratings of the chip.  I think the over current protection in modern decoders is now so good that you’ll not cause any damage to it by fitting a standard decoder to a hungry loco, though there are limits of course - and if the loco is really demanding, the decoder will simply shut down, which rather spoils the illusion.  
 

My guess is that you don’t need anything other than the standard Zimo 6xx decoder.  But I’m not paying if it goes pop!

hth

Simon

 

[Stringfingerling]

1 hour ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

I will be able to tell you more tomorrow as I have just had a Loksound decoder arrived today for mine from Charlie Petty.

 

I must say on DC it will crawl very slowly and there are no issues with the tender only pick up's, so I have not worried about adding a stay alive to mine ( I do fit them to my tank engines though.)

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

 

Hi Ade,
I'll be very interested to hear how it goes, particularly with regard to the fitting process as well as the performance under DCC
Cheers
Rob

[Stringfingerling]

Hi Ade,
I'll be very interested to hear how it goes, particularly with regard to the fitting process as well as the performance under DCC
Cheers
Rob

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Rob, I will post about it once done and try and get Lez to shoot a short video of how it sounds.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Ray H]

The Zimo MX645 has a higher peak current capacity than the other ones do - assuming you want sound.

 

We have about 20 various Older locos on the club layout and the only one with the larger Zimo - MX69x family - is the Heljan diesel with two motors.

 

What size is your layout and what kind of train lengths are you talking about?

[Hal Nail]

I havent got round to measuring yet but would be interesting to see how the tender wheelbase compares to a 57xx. Edit: the tender is longer than a mogul!

 

Hope you dont mind me asking a related question here but if I wanted to add a simple decoder without sound (but potentially stay alive if people do recommend it) would that be a simple job on this loco? Only intended to be an interim step.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Stringfingerling]

17 hours ago, Ray H said:

The Zimo MX645 has a higher peak current capacity than the other ones do - assuming you want sound.

 

We have about 20 various Older locos on the club layout and the only one with the larger Zimo - MX69x family - is the Heljan diesel with two motors.

 

What size is your layout and what kind of train lengths are you talking about?

My layout is an end-to-end layout, 25' in total; the train lengths will always be short.   I'm very keen to maximise reliability; my existing locos have managed to run for several (in two cases, twelve) years with nothing more than an occasional wheel cleaning, very sparing lubrication and one re-soldered wire, which had worked loose.  

[GWR57xx]

7 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I havent got round to measuring yet but would be interesting to see how the tender wheelbase compares to a 57xx. Edit: the tender is longer than a mogul!

 

Hope you dont mind me asking a related question here but if I wanted to add a simple decoder without sound (but potentially stay alive if people do recommend it) would that be a simple job on this loco? Only intended to be an interim step.

 

Tender wheelbase is approx 105mm. Loco driver wheelbase is approx 100mm.

 

I think the only decoder that is a drop in is the Loksound V5 L.

[Ray H]

57 minutes ago, GWR57xx said:

I think the only decoder that is a drop in is the Loksound V5 L.

 

That wouldn't surprise me. I've fitted numerous Zimo MX69x decoders into my mate's Heljan O gauge diesels and they've generally been configured for ESU decoders even down to the speaker enclosures which seems designed to accommodate a fairly basic round speaker. I believe that there are several better ones

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Rob, here are a few pics to illustrate fitting of the Loksound V5 decoder. It is very straight forwards practically plug n play.

 

First remove the tender body which is held in place by three different size screws. This is what is revealed.

 

Next remove the blanking plate circuit board to revealing this.

 

You will see a yellow wire and a red wire. These run forwards to the housing beneath the under frame where you can fit a round speaker if desired. I chose to fit a speaker into the tender instead. So just solder the speaker wires to the same pads on the PCB.

 

 

Here is my speaker in place prior to soldering the wires.

 

Now in place with the new decoder plugged in.

 

 

Simples!

 

When refitting the tender body just take care that the handrails fit into the tiny holes provided on the chassis.

 

The sounds and running are really good. Sadly too dark now to shoot a video, but will try and get one done tomorrow.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

[Stringfingerling]

12 minutes ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Hi Rob, here are a few pics to illustrate fitting of the Loksound V5 decoder. It is very straight forwards practically plug n play.

 

First remove the tender body which is held in place by three different size screws. This is what is revealed.

 

Next remove the blanking plate circuit board to revealing this.

 

You will see a yellow wire and a red wire. These run forwards to the housing beneath the under frame where you can fit a round speaker if desired. I chose to fit a speaker into the tender instead. So just solder the speaker wires to the same pads on the PCB.

 

 

Here is my speaker in place prior to soldering the wires.

 

Now in place with the new decoder plugged in.

 

 

Simples!

 

When refitting the tender body just take care that the handrails fit into the tiny holes provided on the chassis.

 

The sounds and running are really good. Sadly too dark now to shoot a video, but will try and get one done tomorrow.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

Thanks very much for the excellent photos and helpful comments Ade.  That looks as though it was pretty straightforward. Have you been able to use the firebox flicker? 
Where did you source the Loksound decoder?
BW
Rob
 

18 hours ago, Ray H said:

The Zimo MX645 has a higher peak current capacity than the other ones do - assuming you want sound.

 

We have about 20 various Older locos on the club layout and the only one with the larger Zimo - MX69x family - is the Heljan diesel with two motors.

 

What size is your layout and what kind of train lengths are you talking about?

My layout is an end-to-end layout, 25' in total; the train lengths will always be short.   I'm very keen to maximise reliability; my existing locos have managed to run for several (in two cases, twelve) years with nothing more than an occasional wheel cleaning, very sparing lubrication and one re-soldered wire, which had worked loose.  

[Stringfingerling]

15 minutes ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Hi Rob, here are a few pics to illustrate fitting of the Loksound V5 decoder. It is very straight forwards practically plug n play.

 

First remove the tender body which is held in place by three different size screws. This is what is revealed.

 

Next remove the blanking plate circuit board to revealing this.

 

You will see a yellow wire and a red wire. These run forwards to the housing beneath the under frame where you can fit a round speaker if desired. I chose to fit a speaker into the tender instead. So just solder the speaker wires to the same pads on the PCB.

 

 

Here is my speaker in place prior to soldering the wires.

 

Now in place with the new decoder plugged in.

 

 

Simples!

 

When refitting the tender body just take care that the handrails fit into the tiny holes provided on the chassis.

 

The sounds and running are really good. Sadly too dark now to shoot a video, but will try and get one done tomorrow.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

Also Ade,
What was the reason for your choice of locating the speaker in the tender - was it a question of what speaker was available and where it would fit?

 

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Rob, my pleasure.

 

The firebox flicker is F12 and is linked to the coal shovelling sounds.

 

I bought decoder from Charlie Petty at DCkits. No connection just a happy customer.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Re the speaker it was easy it add it there, but you could have one in the loco too if you wished. Youchoos do a speaker in a custom made Resin housing to fit the hole in the underframe.

[Stringfingerling]

Thanks a lot for your help Ade - I'm looking forward now to sorting mine out when it arrives.
BW
Rob

[Ray H]

I can't see a reason why the smaller Zimo MX645 sound decoders wouldn't do with such a relatively short layout/train. This is unless you have very tight curves and/or steep gradients.

 

Some of the locos at the club pull 8 coaches around our 40' x 20' O gauge loco with nothing other than an MX645.

 

We also find the double sugar cube speakers give a surprising sound for their size.

[Stringfingerling]

2 minutes ago, Ray H said:

I can't see a reason why the smaller Zimo MX645 sound decoders wouldn't do with such a relatively short layout/train. This is unless you have very tight curves and/or steep gradients.

 

Some of the locos at the club pull 8 coaches around our 40' x 20' O gauge loco with nothing other than an MX645.

 

We also find the double sugar cube speakers give a surprising sound for their size.

Hi Ray,
What would be the advantage of using a Zimo MX646 compared to a Loksound V5L?

[Adrian Stevenson]

The Zimo option from Youchoos is slightly cheaper, but they are out of stock and have been for a while now. Plus there is a lot more work involved as you have to remove all the wiring from the PCB and add it to the adapter board needed to house the Zimo decoder chip.

 

Really all down to how confident you are with a soldering iron and if you are willing to wait for them to come into stock.

 

I have Zimo chips in several of my locos and I do like them.

 

Cheers, Ade.
 

 

[Ray H]

The Zimo MX645 Comes with a standard dcc eight pin plug. We cut those off and hard wire the decoder, there is no adapter board needed for the MX645. They and the MX644 - which has a 21 pin connector - are rated at 1.2A with a peak current of 2.5A. They're also £45 cheaper than the £145 MX69x series with their higher poser rating.

 

We've never bothered to fit any "accessories" to the loco - no smoke or firebox glow for example - which only leaves the motor drawing current and also means you can cut-off/trim back the various decoder wires that you won't be using and perhaps get it in a smaller space - like the boiler.

 

I've just checked the YouChoos website and the MX645 appears to be back in stock. There are other Zimo suppliers as well.

[GWR57xx]

On 12/12/2020 at 07:14, Hal Nail said:

Hope you dont mind me asking a related question here but if I wanted to add a simple decoder without sound (but potentially stay alive if people do recommend it) would that be a simple job on this loco? Only intended to be an interim step.

Hi Hal, @7007GreatWestern posted on another similar thread that the Lokpilot L is also a compatible fit as a cheaper non-sound option. 

[Adrian Stevenson]

Here is a 1 min video of my 43xx. It will give you a rough idea of what it sounds like. No played with chuff rates or anything like that yet. Filmed one handed with a new phone while controlling the loco with the other. So no Oscars! 

 

This is moving on F17 Shunt mode. Firebox glow and coal shovelling sound is F12. I slowed it right down as it moved across the points and as you can see it is a nice steady runner.

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

 

[7007GreatWestern]

Hello Adrian,

Thanks for posting the above video of your sound fitted Heljan 43xx. I'm not generally a fan of DCC Sound but the sound project on your mogul is among the better efforts that I've heard. You mention that it is running on a Loksound L sourced from DC Kits, but what sound project is it? DC Kits seem to supply their own sounds as well as Legomanbiffo.....