NPCCS unloaded in goods depots.

[Mike Storey]

16 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

The Kent Rail website has a photo of the mail train standing on the siding on the mainline side of the former goods shed at Rochester Freight (Full Loads) Depot, which is what I was thinking of, see https://www.kentrail.org.uk/rochester_freight_depot_2_2.html  , as at Dover Priory the mailbags were transferred directly from lorry to van so no need for a platform.  Interesting to hear of the derailment involving CCT's as these were the only vans normally permitted to be placed in the Down Sdg at Chatham station with parcels traffic, apparently when stabled the CCT doorways were not obstructed by the platform roof supports and BRUTES could be unloaded/loaded without incident.

The former goods shed was in Chatham Goods!! Rochester Freight Depot was just a yard. I may well be remembering the last days of the Goods Shed being used internally, on one road only, before it was deemed unsafe, and work transferred to outside, but it was still done at that end of the complex, when I was there, although I had less to do with it after 82. when our on-call areas changed.

[eastwestdivide]

Just to clarify the Rochester/Chatham confusion... when you say Chatham Goods, do you mean the low-level yard with the increasingly decrepit goods shed that was actually located in Rochester?  As marked on the 1940s map attached:

[SED Freightman]

27 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

Just to clarify the Rochester/Chatham confusion... when you say Chatham Goods, do you mean the low-level yard with the increasingly decrepit goods shed that was actually located in Rochester?  As marked on the 1940s map attached:

I think that Mike Storey and I are both referring to the same place, albeit with different names.  When I worked in the Division, Chatham Sdgs (with the main line connection) were to the north of Blue Boar Lane (with footbridge) and Rochester Full Loads (or Freight) Depot was predominently to the south, although I have also heard this referred to as Chatham Goods (possibly an earlier name).

[KeithHC]

In the late 70’s I had a temp job delivering British rail parcels in the Commer walk thru. I was based out of Earlswood goods yard Surrey. The yard was next to the Quarry line just north of Earlswood Station. The vans where loaded in a large good shed that was rail connected and would have a line of GUV etc parked in the shed. This depot served a large area. My own deliveries where in the Epsom Ewell district.

 

Keith

[eastwestdivide]

43 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

...Chatham Goods (possibly an earlier name).

I wonder if the much earlier "Chatham Central" SER station (closed in 1911) had an influence on the naming of bits of the yard.

To me as an outside observer, it was one long sprawling set of sidings, all located in Rochester, either side of the road/long footbridge, and signposted from the road as "Rail Freight Depot Rochester".

[Mike Storey]

48 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

I think that Mike Storey and I are both referring to the same place, albeit with different names.  When I worked in the Division, Chatham Sdgs (with the main line connection) were to the north of Blue Boar Lane (with footbridge) and Rochester Full Loads (or Freight) Depot was predominently to the south, although I have also heard this referred to as Chatham Goods (possibly an earlier name).

 

I think I agree! We always called this Chatham Goods locally, but I take your point.

[Mike Storey]

6 minutes ago, eastwestdivide said:

I wonder if the much earlier "Chatham Central" SER station (closed in 1911) had an influence on the naming of bits of the yard.

To me as an outside observer, it was one long sprawling set of sidings, all located in Rochester, either side of the road/long footbridge, and signposted from the road as "Rail Freight Depot Rochester".

 

That's what it became - indeed part overlapped the other. But I believe the origin of the Chatham Goods name (whatever the official title was!) originated because this first part of the site, the part southeast of the later footbridge, was developed by the LC&DR. The later increase in sidings, particularly to the north of the footbridge, came out after amalgamation with the SER, and the site partly took the old site of a different station at Rochester (on a viaduct), which was part of the route to the old Chatham Central. Hence Rochester sidings. But it was all in Rochester, that's for sure!

[eastwestdivide]

After another quick trawl through the albums, here's a shot from 1985 showing by chance a Royal Mail van loading onto an SR 'B' van at Rochester, taken from Rochester station platform, signal box and long footbridge in the background, and air-braked freight vans in the far background:

 

cropped from a photo I've definitely posted here before, but that's another story:

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by eastwestdivide

[SED Freightman]

After a bit more digging, the Sectional Appendix for November 1968 refers to the area either side of Blue Boar Lane as 'Chatham Goods Sidings', I also have an undated plan which shows the goods shed as 'Chatham Goods Depot'.  However I also have what appears to be a more recent plan headed 'Rochester Full Load Depot' showing land and siding usage within the depot during the period that NCL occupied the shed, presumably for sundries traffic.  The formal change of name would seem to have occured some time in the late 1970's.

[The Stationmaster]

As ever a few things need correcting - such as quite alot of four and six wheeled NPCCS stock being branded XP.  The XP designation reflected whether or not the vehicle complied with the necessary requirement and was applied to lots of (?all) four or 6 wheeled NPCCS stock because the instructions said you culd not attach fourwjheelers to apassenger train unless they were branded XP.

 

Now mileage freight traffic - which of course continued for years after Beeching its last gasp effectively being Speedlink and the rump of wagonload operations which followed it.  The only difference was that it was called 'wagonload' instead of mileage and as time went on the charging moved from being mileage based to a sort of market pricing base although tonnage usually remained in. the mix.  Individual wagon consignments of coal remained being charged ona mileage basis Thus mileage yards and sidings were still being used for mileage traffic (and wagonload) traffic for many years after Beeching had gone.  And even after Speedlink had closed down on the WR we had the Tiger rail train operating out of the West of England conveying individual wagon loads with some undoubr tedly being charged on a 'mileage + other costs' basis.   Where I worked in the West Country we were still dealing with mileage/wagonload traffic at a number of stations in the late 1970s.

[Mike Storey]

On 22/02/2021 at 21:52, SED Freightman said:

After a bit more digging, the Sectional Appendix for November 1968 refers to the area either side of Blue Boar Lane as 'Chatham Goods Sidings', I also have an undated plan which shows the goods shed as 'Chatham Goods Depot'.  However I also have what appears to be a more recent plan headed 'Rochester Full Load Depot' showing land and siding usage within the depot during the period that NCL occupied the shed, presumably for sundries traffic.  The formal change of name would seem to have occured some time in the late 1970's.

 

Very useful to know - thanks. That explains a lot!! By the early 80's, I don't think anyone locally had heard of the formal change of name. "Full Load" is a strange name for that part of the depot, where it was primarily parcels! But the area between the footbridge and the main line was definitely for full loads, for a while anyway.

[SED Freightman]

14 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Very useful to know - thanks. That explains a lot!! By the early 80's, I don't think anyone locally had heard of the formal change of name. "Full Load" is a strange name for that part of the depot, where it was primarily parcels! But the area between the footbridge and the main line was definitely for full loads, for a while anyway.

At the risk of going way off topic, I think the term Full Loads came about at the time when Sundries traffic (ie. less than Full Loads) was hived off to National Carriers (NCL).  I have seen demarcation plans showing the division of certain goods depots such as Chatham into the areas to be passed to NCL and areas to be retained by the Board with the latter termed Full Load Depots.  As far as the SED were concerned I think this term was applied to the goods depots at Ashford, Tonbridge and Rochester, although it would seem that staff on the ground may well have continued to use the historic location names.

[KeithHC]

When I did parcel deliveries for BR in the late 70’s I was employed by NCL on contract to BR.

 

Keith

[SED Freightman]

2 hours ago, KeithHC said:

When I did parcel deliveries for BR in the late 70’s I was employed by NCL on contract to BR.

 

Keith

Unfortunately when NCL were hived off they took over all of BR's C&D road parcels fleet and their drivers, BR were then required to hire them back from NCL which aided cost control and service delivery no end.  Whilst this may have worked reasonably well on the ground at smaller parcels concentration depots like Redhill, it was a nightmare at big PCD's  like Bricklayers Arms where NCL understandably gave priority to their own business in the event of a shortage of drivers or serviceable vehicles.  BR could hire in third party resources in the event of severe disruption, but again this had to be done via NCL at (I suspect) enhanced rates.

[Fat Controller]

7 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

Unfortunately when NCL were hived off they took over all of BR's C&D road parcels fleet and their drivers, BR were then required to hire them back from NCL which aided cost control and service delivery no end.  Whilst this may have worked reasonably well on the ground at smaller parcels concentration depots like Redhill, it was a nightmare at big PCD's  like Bricklayers Arms where NCL understandably gave priority to their own business in the event of a shortage of drivers or serviceable vehicles.  BR could hire in third party resources in the event of severe disruption, but again this had to be done via NCL at (I suspect) enhanced rates.

In the mid-1970s, I had dealings with both NCL and BR Parcels in Llanelli, Swansea and Avonmouth. It was usual to see the same driver on consécutive days on different company's vehicles; some carried several hats and jackets in the cabs. Avonmouth/Bristol was often short-staffed, and had to bring in staff from Cardiff. I recollect one of these being a Mr Toshack, brother of the footballer.

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

Unfortunately when NCL were hived off they took over all of BR's C&D road parcels fleet and their drivers, BR were then required to hire them back from NCL which aided cost control and service delivery no end.  Whilst this may have worked reasonably well on the ground at smaller parcels concentration depots like Redhill, it was a nightmare at big PCD's  like Bricklayers Arms where NCL understandably gave priority to their own business in the event of a shortage of drivers or serviceable vehicles.  BR could hire in third party resources in the event of severe disruption, but again this had to be done via NCL at (I suspect) enhanced rates.

Yes - not just parcels C&D vehicles with their blasted contracts (which could lead to 'debate' with NCL when one tried to reduce the number of rounds or vehicles you wanted on C&D work) but also the maintenance of all remaining BR road vehicles was also transferred to NCL, I believe at a nationally set fixed price.  

 

This meant things got absolutely ridiculous with such things as in one West country job I was in having to drive our area cars (Ford Escorts) 30 miles to the allocated NCL maintenance depot while we had a Ford dealership with a really good service department just up the road.  And that particular NCL depot was not good on car servicing although they shared that trait with various other NCL depots where BR's smaller vehicles got relatively poor attention while NCL lapped up the cash in exchange for doing not very much.  In one job I'd had to sort out one of the area Minis myself because it was almost undrivable thanks to the local NCL workshops ministrations - if they had any feeler gauges they definitely didn't know how to use them on a spark plugs.  Fortunately when I had a small fleet of personnel carriers in my charge we also had a BR Road Motor Inspector for our area which meant he did all the arguing with NCL about their abysmal maintenance.

[sf315]

Some great responses and information here to the original question I posed. 

I always wondered about Rochester or Chatham Goods where it was actually. As I’ve travelled over that way in recent years by train. To think it’s all gone now hasn’t it. 

Interesting to hear as well about NCL and its goings on. 

Please keep posting. 

Thanks Steve.