Modelling the New North Main Line (Acton - Northolt) c. 1990

[Davexoc]

The thing with all those trains is that they are too long to run round at Chinnor, so would have to have been split at Princes Risborough, or just outside Chinnor. Problem with the second approach is, the line isn't flat, and one day in unfitted days, a too long train was split at the top of the hill and the brake in the guards van didn't hold. Result, the guard and four thirteen year-olds who had grabbed a lift from Wainhill crossing legged it after the runaway unpinning brakes and hanging off levers stopping it just before it got to the steepest bit. If we hadn't been there that day, I reckon it would have crashed through the crossing and got most of the way back to Risborough....

[SED Freightman]

12 hours ago, Davexoc said:

The thing with all those trains is that they are too long to run round at Chinnor, so would have to have been split at Princes Risborough, or just outside Chinnor. Problem with the second approach is, the line isn't flat, and one day in unfitted days, a too long train was split at the top of the hill and the brake in the guards van didn't hold. Result, the guard and four thirteen year-olds who had grabbed a lift from Wainhill crossing legged it after the runaway unpinning brakes and hanging off levers stopping it just before it got to the steepest bit. If we hadn't been there that day, I reckon it would have crashed through the crossing and got most of the way back to Risborough....

I suspect the trains were split outside Chinnor as I do not recall mention of the need to split at Princes Risborough and the TOPS consists show the whole train set out for Chinnor although thats not necessarily an accurate reflection of what happened in far off parts.  Any idea if there would there have been a travelling shunter based at Princes Risborough or were the train crew left to fend for themselves ?

[Davexoc]

On 09/03/2021 at 10:07, SED Freightman said:

I suspect the trains were split outside Chinnor as I do not recall mention of the need to split at Princes Risborough and the TOPS consists show the whole train set out for Chinnor although thats not necessarily an accurate reflection of what happened in far off parts.  Any idea if there would there have been a travelling shunter based at Princes Risborough or were the train crew left to fend for themselves ?

 

A bit OT really, but AFAIK Chinnor was driver, secondman and guard in a brake van, because the crossing(s) were train crew operated. The loop was short so the trailing load limited and once run round and put away, the empties were collected from the remnants of the branch, having got there via the tippler and moved by gravity.

Thame may have been just driver and guard, as being fully fitted and as the Bledlow crossing was open with lights IIRC, there was no real need for a travelling shunter. Princes Risborough was pretty run down and lightly staffed back then.

 

This was a full length working into Chinnor, hoppers just starting to replace 16 MCO/Vs.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Davexoc
Photo restored

[rob D2]

Fascinating stuff - especially on chinnor. I’m from the chilterns and long harboured a desire to model a freight only line in blue days on the local turf ( which is discovered a bit late , always heading for the bright lights of reading !)

 

I’ve seen a few bits online about the acton - chinnor freight and some photos , where it left some wine tankers and HEAs at PR for a 25 to pick up for Aylesbury , with the 31/47 etc continuing on to chinnor.

[SED Freightman]

18 hours ago, Davexoc said:

 

A bit OT really, but AFAIK Chinnor was driver, secondman and guard in a brake van, because the crossing(s) were train crew operated. The loop was short so the trailing load limited and once run round and put away, the empties were collected from the remnants of the branch, having got there via the tippler and moved by gravity.

OT but still interesting, particularly the TMO Crossing(s), the trains from Halling certainly had no brakevan so perhaps a WR guard was picked up to ride in the rear cab from Acton ML, I guess we are unlikely to find out at this late stage.

[37114]

Will be interested to see how you get on with this. I used to use Greenford station a lot to go to meetings in central London (bit after your timescales in 2012 - 2015) as the company I worked for at the time has a large warehouse behind the station and thought the station would make a great model with both the central line and BR line to Paddington as well as the mainline.

[the_orf84]

On 08/03/2021 at 19:34, SED Freightman said:

In 1988 a total of 11 trainloads of foreign coal were forwarded from Halling to Chinnor, the coal arrived via Rugby Cement's own wharf on the River Medway on a small vessel or barge having been delivered in a bulk carrier to Thamesport.  Two sets of HTV wagons were provided to convey the traffic, with loaded and empty sets being swapped at Chinnor, giving Rugby Cement about three days to load at Halling and a week to unload at Chinnor.  I have not managed to uncover full details for each train, but what I have is shewn below. The loaded wagons were generally tripped from Halling to either Hither Green or Hoo Junction on the day prior to the trunk movement or Friday if forward on Monday. The departure and arrival times are actual rather than planned.

 

 

Freightman, this is really great stuff; timetables and operational details are excellent, as are photographs, but records of formations is exactly why I posted this, thank you.  

 

Were HTVs vacuum fitted BR 21 tonners?  I can't find out much in my David Larkin books, presumably as they may have been changed before the dates covered in the two publications I have.  

 

The stories and anecdotes are all welcome on this post, it adds context and interests me a great deal, so please feel free to go a little 'OT', it's all good stuff.

 

 

[the_orf84]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

Will be interested to see how you get on with this. I used to use Greenford station a lot to go to meetings in central London (bit after your timescales in 2012 - 2015) as the company I worked for at the time has a large warehouse behind the station and thought the station would make a great model with both the central line and BR line to Paddington as well as the mainline.

Thanks 37114, I agree, it was an interesting place to grow up - it was also directly underneath the old third runway approach to Heathrow during adverse conditions - I remember there was always a lot going on!

 

As I stated in the initial post, I can't really do the area justice and my model making skills are not up to the task yet.  It's literally my first layout ever, so the fact I've done a bit of split elevation and some points soldering is really at the limit of my skills!  Also, space is very tight as things stand.  However, the idea is to focus on rolling stock that is at least believably accurate to the time and location, with an aim to one day, money and time allowing, perhaps attempt a truly prototypical track plan.  At the moment, the fact I am planning a cement terminal on a crumbling GWR style platform is about as accurate as it gets.  I may post some pictures at a later date on a separate post.  Best wishes.  Adam.

[the_orf84]

18 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Fascinating stuff - especially on chinnor. I’m from the chilterns and long harboured a desire to model a freight only line in blue days on the local turf ( which is discovered a bit late , always heading for the bright lights of reading !)

 

I’ve seen a few bits online about the acton - chinnor freight and some photos , where it left some wine tankers and HEAs at PR for a 25 to pick up for Aylesbury , with the 31/47 etc continuing on to chinnor.

Thanks rob - do you, or does anyone else know if 31s were likely to appear on these trains by the end of the 80s?  They are my favourite class of diesel and something I'd be keen to get on the layout if I felt it was viable. 

[rob D2]

31s were early 80s - ie blue ones . Later in the 80s the coal came on a different train hence the 33s, even later came from Wales cue Rf grey 37s, sector 47s ( incidentally RE shunter , there is a photo of a shunter being picked up by a buffer stop just by the road over bridge in PR ).

 

Of you are looking for RF grey 31s , the Thame tanks had some coming from Stan low but of course that wouldn’t go via London I don’t think .

[Rivercider]

13 minutes ago, the_orf84 said:

Freightman, this is really great stuff; timetables and operational details are excellent, as are photographs, but records of formations is exactly why I posted this, thank you.  

 

Were HTVs vacuum fitted BR 21 tonners?  I can't find out much in my David Larkin books, presumably as they may have been changed before the dates covered in the two publications I have.  

 

The stories and anecdotes are all welcome on this post, it adds context and interests me a great deal, so please feel free to go a little 'OT', it's all good stuff.

 

 

Yes you are correct about the HTV TOPS code for vacuum fitted 21 tonne hoppers. I guess I am sometimes guilty of assuming most people know some of the common TOPS wagon codes, but do try to add extra detail into my notes. (TOPS was introduced from about 1973.)

 

cheers

[the_orf84]

3 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

31s were early 80s - ie blue ones . Later in the 80s the coal came on a different train hence the 33s, even later came from Wales cue Rf grey 37s, sector 47s ( incidentally RE shunter , there is a photo of a shunter being picked up by a buffer stop just by the road over bridge in PR ).

 

Of you are looking for RF grey 31s , the Thame tanks had some coming from Stan low but of course that wouldn’t go via London I don’t think .

That's great info, thanks.  Stanlow is Cheshire way, correct?  I've seen some pictures of 31s beetling around WLL and NLL at this time, but  I never saw any on the NNML that I can recall.  Shame, because they are awesome beasts.  Can I go very much OT and ask if you're stood under a Skyhawk in your picture?

[the_orf84]

Just now, Rivercider said:

Yes you are correct about the HTV TOPS code for vacuum fitted 21 tonne hoppers. I guess I am sometimes guilty of assuming most people know some of the common TOPS wagon codes, but do try to add extra detail into my notes. (TOPS was introduced from about 1973.)

 

cheers

Rivercider thanks, I may have quoted a reply to you that i was meant to send to Freightman - this is all getting a bit confusing!  Thank you for clarification though, cheers.

[Rivercider]

Hopefully not going too far off topic but I have looked in my copy of the Freight Train Loads book dated 1987 for references to Chinnor.

Interestingly there are loads for Barrow Hill to Chinnor (coal in MCVs - vacuum fitted 16t minerals)

Class 31 990 tonnes (inc loco), length limit 60 SLUS (standard 21' length unit) to Princes Risborough

Class 31 525 tonnes (inc loco), length limit 20 SLUS (standard 21' length unit)  from Princes Risborough.

Also load for class 37 (1290 tonnes 60 SLUS to Princes Risborough,  935 tonnes 20 SLUs from Princes Risborough)

 

Also a load shown for Halling to Greenford for Cl.33 900t 22 SLUS, or Cl.47 1090t 22 SLUs.

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

You asked about class 31s in the area, they certainly worked the Northolt - Calvert binliner at times.

The 1987 Freight Train Loads book shows permitted loads Northolt to Calvert for 2 x 31, 45, 47 and 56/58.

It is highly likely that a single class 31 would have worked one of the trips taking a Freightliner 5-set to/from OOC for maintenance.

 

The loads book also shows permitted loads from Ripple Lane to Thame for 2 x 31, 37, and 47, though after a quick search on Flickr I can only see trains of tanks worked by 37, and 47, and can not find any 31s yet.

 

Edit - here is 31110 working fuel tanks Willesden to Old Oak around that route in 1990

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicjoynson/49528480178/in/photolist-2isEpBq-2kFdwRY-2jqMWWE-oX7uTd-2khikjd-8ydceZ-8yge43-tcwyoY-2bf1uxY-DrKV9r-GovKdq-28xiewy-n2LRxa-2iLnbmb-dwty9e-st6yvX-rqzqtt-2hMWydW-9peGYJ-pK2BJC-r8cj2A-dFoF4i-puF98m-puF9ib-pLTjUK-243j5hx-b7WJUT-2jn6ARk-pK2BLG-oQgwFE-2jn3E6K-2jn3C31

 

cheers 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Rivercider

[the_orf84]

16 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Hopefully not going too far off topic but I have looked in my copy of the Freight Train Loads book dated 1987 for references to Chinnor.

Interestingly there are loads for Barrow Hill to Chinnor (coal in MCVs - vacuum fitted 16t minerals)

Class 31 990 tonnes (inc loco), length limit 60 SLUS (standard 21' length unit) to Princes Risborough

Class 31 525 tonnes (inc loco), length limit 20 SLUS (standard 21' length unit)  from Princes Risborough.

Also load for class 37 (1290 tonnes 60 SLUS to Princes Risborough,  935 tonnes 20 SLUs from Princes Risborough)

 

Also a load shown for Halling to Greenford for Cl.33 900t 22 SLUS, or Cl.47 1090t 22 SLUs.

 

cheers

MCVs in 87?!  Wow.  They must have been an interesting condition by that time!

[Rivercider]

Just now, the_orf84 said:

MCVs in 87?!  Wow.  They must have been an interesting condition by that time!

I suspect it might be an old reference note, that had not been amended in the book.

Dave mentioned earlier that HTVs were replacing MCO/MCVs in the 1970s, so I would go with that.

But it does show that the train was expected to be reduced in length from Princes Risborough.

 

cheers

[rob D2]

53 minutes ago, the_orf84 said:

That's great info, thanks.  Stanlow is Cheshire way, correct?  I've seen some pictures of 31s beetling around WLL and NLL at this time, but  I never saw any on the NNML that I can recall.  Shame, because they are awesome beasts.  Can I go very much OT and ask if you're stood under a Skyhawk in your picture?

Yep, stay low hasn’t existed for years but was up that way.

 

it certainly is a skyhawk - an airworthy one at that , pictured at a little air museum near cape caneveral 

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, the_orf84 said:

MCVs in 87?!  Wow.  They must have been an interesting condition by that time!

I took a couple of MXV in August 1986 and they were in fair condition. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralmortonmxv/ebed8d1f

 

Paul

[the_orf84]

I got a post from Paul Bartlett!  Thanks for the link Paul!

[Davexoc]

Found this one, not on the line but heading that way...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicjoynson/30349992393/in/album-72157632736200098/

 

[the_orf84]

5 minutes ago, Davexoc said:

Found this one, not on the line but heading that way...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nicjoynson/30349992393/in/album-72157632736200098/

 

What a great shot and an excuse to buy another 33 definitely seems to be on the cards.  Are those Marcon 102T PHAs? 

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/marconpha/e3e202211 

[Davexoc]

22 hours ago, the_orf84 said:

What a great shot and an excuse to buy another 33 definitely seems to be on the cards.  Are those Marcon 102T PHAs? 

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/marconpha/e3e202211 

Yes, that looks like the ones. There does appear to be at least two different variations if you look at the hopper profile, as shown on PB's site....

[rob D2]

Petertandy.co.uk , spent some time at west Ealing on 1989 and captured some trains going onto the loop, 

 

have a look at his website 

Edited March 11, 2021 by rob D2

[The Stationmaster]

On 10/03/2021 at 17:23, Rivercider said:

Yes you are correct about the HTV TOPS code for vacuum fitted 21 tonne hoppers. I guess I am sometimes guilty of assuming most people know some of the common TOPS wagon codes, but do try to add extra detail into my notes. (TOPS was introduced from about 1973.)

 

cheers

Just to get the dates right for anyone looking at the thread and wondering about TOPS.   Trial sites were set up in early 1973 (it is possible that there might have been an experimental site in late 1972 ).  Cutover to full TOPs implementation. was scheduled to commence around the second half of 1973 and although it didn't cover a very large area and a lot of areas weren't cutover until 1974 although national implementation wasn't completed until the following year (I think).

 

The full range of wagon codes followed a bit more slowly - for example in 1973 all freight brakevans were still listed on TOPS (but not painted) with the original Southern Pacific code of CAB (short for caboose).