Seeking info on 1960s ISO container details

[Mol_PMB]

Hello!

I'm modelling the Manchester Ship Canal Railway in the 1960s, and want to include a little of the intermodal traffic that was operated.

I have a specific question about some of the early ISO containers, but thought I'd give a bit of background to my request:

 

Containers came to Manchester in a big way in 1968/69, with the Manchester Liners shipping terminal at Salford No.9 Dock, and two rail-served facilities: the Freightliner terminal at Trafford Park, and the OCL Containerbase at Barton.

The MSC Railway served the OCL Containerbase, hauling the lengthy Freigthliner-type trains to the junction with BR. That's too big for me to model in O gauge.

But there was also some internal container traffic on the MSC Railway, as they handled containers from 9 Dock to various warehouses and industries in Trafford Park. This was carried on cut-down 4-wheel double bolster wagons like this one (seen disused some years later):

I believe one of the main traffics handled this way was tobacco, as it could be taken direct from ship to bonded warehouse by rail without opening the container.

One or two of those wagons would make a very manageable container train for my railway.

 

Now, I've only ever seen one photo of one of these little container flats in use, and it appears right on the margin of a photo taken by Allan Baker in 1969: here is the detail cropped from the photo. The wagon isn't the same as the one above, but it's a similar conversion:

 

So my first goal is to model the container being carried here, but we can't see much of it. However, we can see it's a CTI container and it has an unusual feature of vertical ribs on the doors. It also looks rather 'square' which suggests it is a 20'x8'x8' container, rather than the more common 8'6" high.

 

This one seems to have similar doors, and is also only 8' high. However the door hinges and locking arrangements are slightly different:

 

Here's another one with similar characteristics; this type of container seems to have four fork-lift slots each side with a reinforcing strip above.

Interestingly the fully-visible container has the 4 door locking bars, but the other two red ones only have two locking bars, like the one in Allan Baker's photo.

 

This photo at Trafford Park container terminal in 1971 shows what appears to be a similar CTI container (the nearer one) on a Freightliner train:

http://www.manlocosoc.co.uk/sutherland/slide-webone-off.cgi?ws-173&03

 

Now, this leaves me with some questions, and I hope there may be someone who can advise or at least give me confidence to make an assumption:

(1) Would the top of the container be flat or ribbed?  This image suggests that just because the sides are ribbed, it doesn't mean the top is:  http://www.manlocosoc.co.uk/sutherland/slide-webone-off.cgi?ws-173&06

(2) The similar CTI containers in the images above all have different lettering styles and positioning. Is it possible to guess what the lettering would have been on the side of the container in the black and white photo? It looks as if the CTI logo on the end is on a flat plate, so I'm tempted to assume that the logo on the side would also have been on a flat plate like the one on the Freightliner train above.

(3) In the late 1960s, what other lettering and markings would have been on the container?

(4) I expect I'll have to scratchbuild the container, as the selection available in true 7mm scale seems very limited. I've seen the Buzz models ones and found this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161988237215 but all the others seem to be 1:45 or 1:48. Am I missing something?

(5) Are there any transfers for CTI containers available in 7mm scale? 

 

I appreciate that this is a rather obscure query, but I'm hoping someone may have a photo in their archives that might answer some of them. Can you help?

 

Many thanks,

Mol

(considering my name, perhaps I should instead be modelling a container with an alligator on?)

[Fat Controller]

I believe 8' was the original norm for ISO boxes; key routes such as that through the tunnel at Southampton, and the one at Penmanshiel, were not enlarged to accept 8'6" containers until well into the 1970s. Penmanshiel was being enlarged when it collapsed on 17/03/1979, leading to the death of two workers, and the abandonment of the tunnel.

Thanks for posting the photos; that's a rare one of a CNC container with side door.

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Def go with 8ft high and roof most likely smooth. Can't help with many other details, although what you've highlighted from your research is you could choose to make the container using a combination of any of the characteristics shown in your photos and i doubt anyone would ever tell you it was wrong. If you plan on making two then go for 2 different styles, but you're right the reinforced double forklift holes do seem to be common to all of them.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks! I'm thinking of just doing the one CTI container on an MSC flat wagon. I've started drawing it up, then will probably need lots of microstrip and some careful measuring to make a convincing job of it. Unless I cheat and get the bits laser-cut!

 

I'm also planning to do a Manchester Liners container on a BR Conflat ISO (former Lowmac) as shown in the foreground of this image:

No doubt about the smooth roof of this one, though note the 'ML' lettering on the roof which is not often modelled. This seems to have been a common feature on the ML containers, also shown here:

I think I've got enough info on the 'standard' ML containers, they just have a daunting number of rivets on!

 

Incidentally, I think this lovely photo also shows another MSC container flat, just above the bow of the little steam workboat 'Basuto':

Amazing to think that the ancient 'Basuto' built in 1902 still exists, while all the ML container ships are long-scrapped!

[Mol_PMB]

I decided to buy some reference material and picked up this slightly tatty volume for £12 on ebay.

 

It's packed with photos of containers and handling equipment, and has answered severa of my questions about this particular container type which appears in at least three photos!

So now I know it does have a flat top, and a logo panel on both sides and both ends.

 

Many other early container types appear in the photos.

 

If anyone is interested in particular container types or inspiration for a wider variety of boxes on your early Freightliner train, let me know and I can scan some more photos.

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

[Mol_PMB]

A couple of other examples that may be of interest, there are many hundreds of photos in the book:

Map of container handling facilities at Manchester:

 

Early BELL containers, unpainted aluminium rather than the familiar blue/purple livery:

 

Perhaps most interesting of all, a Ferry Freightliner train. Putting the wagons on the boat too seems to defeat the purpose of the containerisation concept!