"First Class Kits" Lowmac wagon - (7mm scale) - build as 'Conflat ISO' container wagon

[Mol_PMB]

I'd like to build a Lowmac EP wagon in 7mm scale. I have identified that there is a kit produced by "First Class Kits", listed online here:

https://www.firstclasskits.co.uk/lowma-wagon

I think this may be the one previously marketed by Welcome Wagons?

 

First impressions from the web page aren't very favourable. The sample photographed hasn't been built or finished to a great standard.

I also get the impression that the solebars are too deep compared to the prototype, which could be a fair bit of work to correct.

 

Has anyone here built one of these? What were your impression of the kit and the finished result? Could you share any photos of a well-finished one?

 

NB I know there are several very nice Lowmac kits (for different types of Lowmac) from Connoiusseur Models, but I particularly need a Lowmac EP to carry an ISO container.

 

Thanks,

Mol

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Mol_PMB
change thread title

[37114]

I can't comment on the Lowmac bit I have built their Presflo which again had not a great picture on the website but it turned out they remastered the kit and the actual model went together well and was a close match to the prototype 

[Mol_PMB]

12 minutes ago, 37114 said:

I can't comment on the Lowmac bit I have built their Presflo which again had not a great picture on the website but it turned out they remastered the kit and the actual model went together well and was a close match to the prototype 

Many thanks, that's very helpful. I did also find a download of the instructions online and it does look like a reasonable kit - maybe just undersold by a mediocre build pictured on their website.

Cheers,

Mol

[pwr]

I built the D and S GER Machinery wagon and that went together without too many issues but I am not sure if the kit is still available.

 

Paul R

 

[Mol_PMB]

My 'First Class Kits' lowmac kit has arrived.

First impressions are that the kit is very well presented, in a neat box with compartments for the various parts. The etch and castings look good. It includes wheels, buffers, couplings, and some transfers.

Having had a measure up, my initial impression from the online images has proved to be correct: the solebars are too deep.

Looking at the diagram, the top surface of the well is 2'3.75" above rail, and the lowest point (at the crossmembers) is 1'1.75" above rail (i.e. total height 14"):

However, the cross-members are actually below the solebars as can be seen here, perhaps an inch below:

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brlowmacep/e5e46899c

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brlowmacep/e3019de19

So I think the solebar height should be about 13" which is 7.6mm in O gauge.

On the model, the solebar height is about 9mm between fold lines and will end up about 9.5mm once folded:

This will be compounded by the fact that on the model, the floor is designed to fit on top of the solebars, whereas in reality the top of the solebar is flush with the floor.

The total height of the solebars will end up being 30% more than the real thing.

 

Another issue is that the floor detail isn't correct. For a model which is 90% floor when you look at it, this is also a problem!

This view from above (of a slightly earlier LNER-built vehicle) shows how the tops of four solebars show, and there is longitudinal planking between them. Along each edge are a series of roping rings which are in rebates below the surface. The BR-built wagons were the same as shown in the diagram above (though they had longer metal plates on the sloped parts).

But the kit floor is completely different in the well section, the plank spacing is very odd and there is no representation of the rings:

However, for my purposes, the floor detail isn't too important because I'm going to build this as a Conflat ISO with a frame and ISO container on top.

But the solebar depth is an issue.

 

At the moment, I am consdering two options:

(1) Make the solebars as intended, but don't fit the well floor. Instead represent the planks flush with the solebar tops. I think this would be better for a normal Lowmac as the floor detail is very obvious.

(2) Cut at least 1mm off the top of the solebars, as well as the top flange. Solder them direct to the underside of the floor. This will give a better look to the solebars but the well floor detail will remain wrong (but that will be mostly hidden by the ISO container and frame). I will have to reinstate the top flange at the ends of the solebars and adjust the positions of some holes and rivets.

Whichever option I pick, I'll have to heavily modify the cross-members underneath. But they're entirely wrong for the prototype!

 

Sometimes it seems I can never build a kit as intended...

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mol_PMB
typo corrected

[airnimal]

Before you do anything drastic do you know if the kit is supposed as the same as your drawing ? 

Are there different wagons built to the same diagram at different times ? Do you have a copy of the works drawing or are you making a wagon to match a good photograph. 

You would think making a model of a wagon built quite late that there would be lots of information available. 

 

Whatever you do it is your model so it's entirely up to you if you can live with faults that you know about. I am looking forward to your choice on making this kit and seeing how it turns out.

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, airnimal said:

Before you do anything drastic do you know if the kit is supposed as the same as your drawing ? 

Are there different wagons built to the same diagram at different times ? Do you have a copy of the works drawing or are you making a wagon to match a good photograph. 

You would think making a model of a wagon built quite late that there would be lots of information available. 

 

Whatever you do it is your model so it's entirely up to you if you can live with faults that you know about. I am looking forward to your choice on making this kit and seeing how it turns out.

That's a very good point. The kit is supposed to be a BR diagram 2/242 which is the drawing I was looking at. There was only ever one batch of them built for BR, though they were based on a very similar LNER design.

When I looked at the online photos of the model, the solebars looked too deep by eye, so this isn't a great surprise. But it's going to be a bit of a pain to modify.

I don't have any proper works drawings, only diagrams, but the diagrams are fairly detailed and dimensioned. I wonder whether a proper GA drawing of the BR Diagram 2/242 exists?

 

The LNER initially built the 'Mac NV' which had an underclearance of 1'2" in the middle and a floor height of 2'2" according to the LNER diagram, so a 12" solebar (on these, the underside of the crossmembers was flush with the solebars). Load capacity was initially 20t, raised to 22t in WWII.

 

That design was then modified by the LNER to a 'Mac PV' with deeper solebars for a load capacity of 25t. The LNER also built some of these for the LMS.

I don't know exactly how deep the solebars were on these (though I know they were deeper), but the diagram suggests a maximum of 14"; less if the crossmembers are taken into account.

BR seem to have copied the 'Mac PV' for their diagram 2/242 as depicted by the kit (in theory).

 

There was a later BR diagram 2/253 which was similar but 18" longer, seems to have reverted to the 12" solebar, had more rivets and reinforcing plates, plus a number of other detail differences.

 

There were of course many other types of Lowmac, but the ones listed above are the only types I'm interested in because I want to model a 'Conflat ISO' conversion.

Examples of each of these types were converted in the mid 1960s.

 

I'm not too worried about having it absolutely right, but at the moment it 'looks wrong' and I'd feel better if I can make it a bit slimmer.

 

Anyway, before I start this I must get back to my rake of Highs and finish off those AMBIS brake lever guides...

[Mol_PMB]

I've consulted a friend with a wider selection of wagon books than I have.

He has been able to confirm that the 'Mac NV' has a solebar depth of 12", while the 'Mac PV' is 14".

Also the LMS p54A (built by the LNER concurrently with the 'Mac PV') appears to be 14".

His interpretation of the BR diagram 2/242 is that it shows a 14" solebar depth.

So I think I'll go with 14", which is 8.2mm in O gauge. The etch is about 0.4mm thick, so subtracting twice that for the top and bottom flanges I need the web of the solebars to be 7.4mm rather than the 8.8mm it is at the moment. I'll have to remove about 1.4mm. Roughly sketched on, it should look like this:

 

 

 

[jonhall]

I'm just wondering why you get two sets of solebars?

 

I'd think taking a sliver off the bottom of the solebar and adding a new lip in strip brass would be easier then the top?

 

Its also obvious from the diagram that there is 1/2" of hogging built into the deck - that might be a can of worms you don't want to open,

 

In 7mm I'd think about fitting a false floor in the well, and adding the floor in real timber between a cosmetic representation of the central longitudinal beams.

 

Jon

 

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Jon.

 

You get two sets of solebars because the outer and inner sets are modelled just like in the prototype - you can see the inner pair in the deck here, near the centreline of the well:

But bizarrely, the kit then covers them up with an incorrectly planked floor on top of all four!

 

If I was modelling one in the condition shown in this photo, then I think my preference would be to do as you say - remove the material from the bottom of the solebars, and fit a wooden floor flush with their top flanges. 

That would also make modelling the roping rings easier.

 

However, in my case I'm building a CONFLAT ISO. That has a frame mounted in the well like this:

And then it will carry an ISO container on the frame. So actually you won't be able to see any of the well deck on my completed model.

I think it that case it will be easier overall to remove the top lip, for several reasons:

(1) I can use the kit floor to represent the top lip in the well (though I will have to reinstate the top lip on the end sections using strip);

(2) The shape at the ends behind the headstocks will be better if I remove material from the top;

(3) I think it will permit me to use more of the half-etched rivet detail.

 

More info and photos on the ISO container conversions here:

 

 

 

[Hal Nail]

Given it's a relatively basic shape and you have a good diagram and photographs, I'd have been tempted to just scratch build.

 

In fact I am thinking of giving it a go now!

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Given it's a relatively basic shape and you have a good diagram and photographs, I'd have been tempted to just scratch build.

 

In fact I am thinking of giving it a go now!

Go for it! It would be interesting to see another Conflat ISO!

The kit does at least contain the necessary castings etc, even if I'm going to heavily modify some of the main parts. As I make progress I'll update this thread.

 

[Izzy]

Just a thought. Although it might be down to drawing error could the increased size be to allow enough clearance for the wheelsets. Would thinning it cause issues here?

[hmrspaul]

13 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

My 'First Class Kits' lowmac kit has arrived.

First impressions are that the kit is very well presented, in a neat box with compartments for the various parts. The etch and castings look good. It includes wheels, buffers, couplings, and some transfers.

Having had a measure up, my initial impression from the online images has proved to be correct: the solebars are too deep.

Looking at the diagram, the top surface of the well is 2'3.75" above rail, and the lowest point (at the crossmembers) is 1'1.75" above rail (i.e. total height 14"):

However, the cross-members are actually below the solebars as can be seen here, perhaps an inch below:

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brlowmacep/e5e46899c

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brlowmacep/e3019de19

So I think the solebar height should be about 13" which is 7.6mm in O gauge.

 

 

 

 

I am not aware that there is anything lower than the solebars except the cross bracing, each with 3 rivets holding them in place. Certainly not an inch thick. 

 

Yes, the solebar over webs is 14inches. 

 

Paul

10 hours ago, airnimal said:

 

You would think making a model of a wagon built quite late that there would be lots of information available. 

 

BR is too recent for a lot of information to make it into public archives. It is improving but offset by, as an example the model magazines not being interested in publishing drawings at the moment. 

 

Paul

[Mol_PMB]

Paul, Many thanks for confirming the dimensions. 

Last night I marked up the parts and will cut them later today. 

[Mol_PMB]

8 hours ago, Izzy said:

Just a thought. Although it might be down to drawing error could the increased size be to allow enough clearance for the wheelsets. Would thinning it cause issues here?

This is a good thought.

On the real wagons, the floor height on the ramps is raised a few inches above the solebars to give extra clearance for the wheels. But the kit has a dummy floor immediately on the solebars in this area, with a gap above it that the wheels can’t make use of. I won’t be fitting that dummy floor. 

I hope to compensate one end if I have enough room. 

I think I’d rather have the solebar the right height and if necessary have the wagon riding a little high. 

[Mol_PMB]

I've made some progress today, not as much as hoped because friends and beer intervened. But the modified lowmac is starting to come together.

I'm not building this anything like the instructions and I've raided the bits box for some offcuts of brass sections.

There's a bit of an issue to resolve at the headstocks; I'll give that some more thought tomorrow. But at least the solebar depth looks better!

 

Will either of these two links work for a photo of three of these on Manchester No.9 dock in 1970?

https://images.manchester.gov.uk/Display.php?irn=45128

 

[Mol_PMB]

Yesterday I could foresee one problem with the headstocks, but actually there were two.

 

The one I had foreseen is visible in this photo from yesterday: having made the solebars shallower in the middle and on the slopes, I had left the ends the original height. As a consequence, the ends of the floor which should have been horizontal were not:

I decided to remove the sloping sections of the floor and modify them...

 

Secondly, the kit headstock is too deep (even if I was building the kit as intended). The instructions do make passing reference to this, and 'filing off the excess' but it's not quite that simple. This shows the headstock against one of the unmodified solebars (which I'm not using):

I trimmed several mm off the top, then soldered it into place. Then I cut a 5mm strip of scrap brass and soldered that behind.

I also reinforced the top of the solebars with some strip cut from scrap etch, and I ended up with this:

 

Then I took the ends of the floor, and cut 5mm from the outer ends. I also straightened out the two different slopes. I fitted them, and reinforced the joint on the sloping parts with some more scrap. That got me this far:

 

Since then I have fitted the V-hangers (which again required significant modification) and I am working on the W irons and axleboxes. With a long wheelbase wagon like this, I am going to fit compensation at one end and I have worked out how to do this within the space available. I'll update this thread when I have done a bit more...

 

[Mol_PMB]

A few photos of the lowmac wheelsets. Here is the fixed end, built roughly as per instructions but with slightly reduced clearances to get the correct ride height:

 

Here's the rocking unit for the compensated end, made up of a variety of bits out of the brass sections box:

 

This is what it mounts to on the underside of the floor, again bodged up from bits and adjusted until I was happy with the positioning. This photo also shows how I installed the V-hangers for the brakes at nothing like the intended angle, but this gives a better representation of the real thing:

 

And then with the compensated end assembled:

 

Now, the compensating unit rocks nicely. But I've discovered that the axle at the fixed end isn't perfectly level, so the wagon is sitting slightly leaning to one side. Damn! I'll have to fix that after tea.

[Mol_PMB]

I fixed the wheelset alignment issue, had a tidy up on the workbench and then opened my packet of brass angle which was delivered very promptly by Hobby Holidays yesterday.

I've now made a start on the frame that carries the ISO container. Each of the different diagrams of lowmac had slightly different frames, so I'm being careful to copy the one for the diagram 2/242 lowmac.

So far I've not even finished one side, but the main members are shaped and soldered together, and it seems to fit quite well:

This is a real one:

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brlowmacep/e3019de19

 

And this is one is very similar, but the LNER-built equivalent:

I'm intending to model the sides and ends of the container frame in full detail, but I'm going to simplify the cross-members in between because it will always run with a container on top.

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Mol_PMB
clarification

[pwr]

These castings look really neat

 

Paul R

[brossard]

I've been watching this thread quietly from behind the bushes.

 

I do like how you have modified this kit to suit your needs.  One mod leads to another but in the end you will have a model that is unique and accurate.

 

Great stuff.

 

John

[Mol_PMB]

20 minutes ago, pwr said:

These castings look really neat

 

Paul R

They are. In fact all the parts are very neat (wait until you see the brake gear!) but they don’t all fit together very well or quite represent the prototype.

As the basis for a kitbash they’re great though. If I were to build another (which is possible) I would buy another kit just for the castings. 

[jonhall]

 

 

This is LNER MacPV  263289 at Quainton yesterday with 14inch solebars

 

Jon

[Mol_PMB]

Brilliant, many thanks Jon for confirming the dimension.

I've been away from home for the last few days (also working in 305mm:ft scale) but keen to get back to the Conflat ISO project.

Cheers,

Mol