How many trips could a steam locomotive make per day?

[Nick Holliday]

39 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

If survival is the criterion, rather than build-date, the Stroudley G Class should be counted, in that I think the last one wasn’t withdrawn until 1914.

 

If you look at a picture of one, and cover the front wheels with your finger, the design DNA that descended to CR 123 instantly becomes clear.

 

Which brings up the thought that Bradley offers some answers to the OP’s question in respect of the LBSCR, because for a long time they diagrammed locos onto the same trains, day in, day out, for months, even years, at a time, famously retaining the ‘one driver, one engine’ policy much longer than most large railways. I need to get the book out to see what G were doing in the Edwardian period - the Midhurst branches, and Guildford to Brighton I suspect, and maybe Tunbridge Wells to Three Bridges, all being routes that had light loading a, and I think turntables at both ends.

 

Stop Press: photo here of ‘Stephenson’ hauling the Sunday Pullman in 1914, saying that this was ‘just about all the loco was used for by this time’. Amazing! 

 

Ahrons is a good source for answers to the question for the mid-late Victorian period, in that he describes that practises on some railways in fair detail (and is very funny in the process).

The Stroudley Singles didn't end up on single line branches in their later days.  As per the photo, Stephenson was regularly rostered to take the Victoria to Eastbourne Pullman, which normally ran with two vans and four older Pullmans, well within the loco's capacity. Other survivors worked along the coast lines, and the Tunbridge Wells based ones ran often to Brighton via Uckfield and, on occasions, to Victoria. Legend has it that it was Abergavenny slipping in torrential rain near Lewes that precipitated Marsh into scrapping the final examples earlier than perhaps necessary.

Stephenson spent its last year or so running around the system with a gauging train, to see where the recently redundant first class coaches from the South London electrics could safely be run, being longer and wider than other Brighton stock.

[rodent279]

38 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

The Stroudley Singles didn't end up on single line branches in their later days.  As per the photo, Stephenson was regularly rostered to take the Victoria to Eastbourne Pullman, which normally ran with two vans and four older Pullmans, well within the loco's capacity. Other survivors worked along the coast lines, and the Tunbridge Wells based ones ran often to Brighton via Uckfield and, on occasions, to Victoria. Legend has it that it was Abergavenny slipping in torrential rain near Lewes that precipitated Marsh into scrapping the final examples earlier than perhaps necessary.

Stephenson spent its last year or so running around the system with a gauging train, to see where the recently redundant first class coaches from the South London electrics could safely be run, being longer and wider than other Brighton stock.

According to SReMG and to RailUK, 3 of the G class were sold to the Italian State Railways. Can anyone confirm, is there any photographic evidence?

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, billbedford said:

There was also 10 locos each in NER I & J classes all built 1888 -1890. The last withdrawn in 1921. 

Plus 12 GNR classes A4 & A5 built 1898, 1900 and 1901 all were withdrawn in 1917. 

 

I'm not sure that the MS&L Sacré 2-2-2s should not also be included. 12 built 1882/3 and all lasted until the early years of the 20th century. 

 

Woe is me for not counting in T.W. Worsdell's compound singles. 

 

What I would strictly discount is the last gasp of the earlier six-wheeler single generation as being a hang-over rather than representatives of a revival. (I'd count the Stirling and Dean singles under this heading too.) Sacré's outside-cylinder 2-2-2s, though built in 1882/3, hark back to an earlier age. Like Pollitt's 4-2-2s, they were built for the Cheshire Lines Liverpool-Manchester expresses.

 

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If survival is the criterion, rather than build-date, the Stroudley G Class should be counted, in that I think the last one wasn’t withdrawn until 1914.

 

... and I'd argue likewise for Stroudley's singles, engines of the 1870s, though in many respects very advanced for their day.

 

I'm surprised, though, that no-one has thrown up Holden's D27 2-2-2s, built 1889-93 after experiments removing the coupling rods from a T19 2-4-0. Pretty much contemporary with the slide-valve series of Midland singles; James Holden would have been no stranger to the engines working out of St Pancras, since that's what his own engines were doing too.

[The Stationmaster]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm surprised, though, that no-one has thrown up Holden's D27 2-2-2s, built 1889-93 after experiments removing the coupling rods from a T19 2-4-0. Pretty much contemporary with the slide-valve series of Midland singles; James Holden would have been no stranger to the engines working out of St Pancras, since that's what his own engines were doing too.

Which led to his P43 4-2-2 class of 1899 which look to have had classic single wheeler lines judging by photos (and were also oil-fired)

[billbedford]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Woe is me for not counting in T.W. Worsdell's compound singles. 

 

What I would strictly discount is the last gasp of the earlier six-wheeler single generation as being a hang-over rather than representatives of a revival. (I'd count the Stirling and Dean singles under this heading too.) Sacré's outside-cylinder 2-2-2s, though built in 1882/3, hark back to an earlier age. Like Pollitt's 4-2-2s, they were built for the Cheshire Lines Liverpool-Manchester expresses.

 

The original allocation of the Sacré singles was: 7 to the CLC, 3 to Manchester for the London expresses working as far as Grantham and two to Sheffield. 

[Nick Holliday]

21 hours ago, rodent279 said:

According to SReMG and to RailUK, 3 of the G class were sold to the Italian State Railways. Can anyone confirm, is there any photographic evidence?

Bradley (RCTS) merely states that three Singles were sent to Italy from Deptford Wharf in August 1907, sold as scrap metal, not as working locos.  Apparently there was a brisk trade in scrap metals to both Italy and Japan. It is possible that other scrapped Singles ended up being shipped abroad. Unlikely to be any identifiable photos taken in Italy, and I cannot recall any views of them on board or being loaded.

[Compound2632]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which led to his P43 4-2-2 class of 1899 which look to have had classic single wheeler lines judging by photos (and were also oil-fired)

 

Designed not by Holden but by his star pupil, F.V. Russell, as a passing-out piece. For myself, I find their appearance is compromised by the 7 ft driving wheels - an 1890s 4-2-2 needs a bigger splasher for balance - and the rather ungainly proportions of the cab.

 

12 hours ago, billbedford said:

The original allocation of the Sacré singles was: 7 to the CLC, 3 to Manchester for the London expresses working as far as Grantham and two to Sheffield. 

 

I stand corrected; guilty of speed-reading Ahrons.

[DCB]

A lot of singles suffered from having parts, boilers particularly, tenders, maybe even cylinders and motion parts very suitable for re use on new locos.  Singles were very economical in repairs and fuel on non stop express duties but little use for secondary services involving constant stops and starts,   Some became 2-4-0s,  The GWR even made some into 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s but many were reduced to parts, frames scrapped and boilers and tenders re used. Stroudleys three HR "Pre Terriers" and Gresleys  J50 Submarine Tanks were examples of re using Single boilers on "New Build" 0-6-0 Tanks.

There were of course wide firebox singles, on the GWR, in Broad gauge days.   

 

 

[DCB]

On 02/12/2021 at 17:57, DK123GWR said:

This is one of those topics which has surely been discussed before, but I'm struggling to find where. How much work could an express passenger locomotive reasonably do in a day? The route I'm interested in is Paddington-Barnstaple via Westbury (the line from Taunton to Barnstaple being a main line in this universe) with probably another 60-100 miles (the range accounts for there being two possible destinations, as well as difficulties measuring wiggly lines) into the sea. The longer of these routes would involve tough gradients.

 

Going back to post one,  the GWR ran the West Country Postal from Penzance to Paddington with one engine, re manned at Exeter as the longest through locomotive working prior to the LMS Euston Glasgow / Edinburgh one off and the LNER daily non stop  London Edinburgh workings.  The locos worked Exeter Penzance on day 1,  Penzance - Paddington on day 2 and Paddington Exeter on day three, so three locos and four crews were involved per day.   It was a prestige thing but provided main line work for Exeter which was steadily losing importance as trains combined and re engined at Newton Abbott.   A Saint could run 320 miles with one brief stop, but with the coming of the Castles Stars were cascaded on to the service and there were three I believe instances of Con rod failure where the small end snapped off leaving the rods still wiithin the slide bars, in the Thames valley. heading East.  K J Cook investigated and determined the greater angle of movement at the small end of the shorter Star con rod caused greater oil consumption and he redesigned the small end oil reservoirs to increase oil capacity.   Had they used Gresley slide bars there would have been an almighty crash.  So your loco could have done Paddington Barnstaple and back, but only as a stunt or maybe on a Summer Saturday when traffic was stupid.    Actually a Non Superheated Saint was the same weight as a Manor so it could have worked Barnstaple Town - Paddington had any been left in the 1930s.  Too wide over footsteps to get to Barnstaple Junction.   Only a select few 43XX of GW outside cyl locos were allowed to the Junction.

[Nick Holliday]

On 19/01/2022 at 10:26, DCB said:

A lot of singles suffered from having parts, boilers particularly, tenders, maybe even cylinders and motion parts very suitable for re use on new locos.  Singles were very economical in repairs and fuel on non stop express duties but little use for secondary services involving constant stops and starts,   Some became 2-4-0s,  The GWR even made some into 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s but many were reduced to parts, frames scrapped and boilers and tenders re used. Stroudleys three HR "Pre Terriers" and Gresleys  J50 Submarine Tanks were examples of re using Single boilers on "New Build" 0-6-0 Tanks.

There were of course wide firebox singles, on the GWR, in Broad gauge days.   

 

 

This may have been true in the early days, when the engineers were struggling to match growing traffic with the equipment available, but regarding the singles under discussion, the second wave as it were, this wasn't so prevalent.  Most survived around thirties years, by which time they were thoroughly worn out, and there would have been little that could be recycled, as the technology had advanced, although on some lines, such as the GWR, there had been periodic improvements, such as boilers, and it is possible they were compatible with other classes, and could be re-used. I don't think any of this era were rebuilt as 2-4-0's, and only a couple of experimental GWR singles were rebuilt as 4-4-0's, the others of this persuasion were 2-4-0's.  The reconstruction of the Sir Daniel class of single into useful 0-6-0's was an exception to the rule, and would make fascinating subjects for RTR!

As regards the tank engines cited, the Stroudley "Pre-Terriers" only two of the three used boilers from earlier locos, the Raigmores 2-2-2, the third receiving a totally new boiler.  The initial batches of the GNR J23 Class (later LNER J50) 0-6-0 tanks, consisting of 20 locos, did use re-used boilers, but these were all taken from the notorious 0-8-2 tanks, which had been rebuilt with larger boilers.  The third batch of ten similarly used this type of recycled boiler, but three had been ordered for fitting to Stirling singles, but only one of them actually reached a single (No 872) the others having served time on the 0-8-2 tanks instead. (Courtesy N Groves RCTS GN Locomotive History)