Advice for novice n gauge coach builders

[andreas]

I'm hoping to make use of the collective experience around here to help me pick good kits for a first foray into coach building. I am looking for n gauge or 2mm coach kits that are ideally (1) relatively easy to build and finish, (2) look the part and (3) are immediately useful for 1950s/1960s Somerset & Dorset. Ultimately I'm trying to avoid an early disappointment that will keep me from building more coaches in the future.

 

My main question is how kits from different providers compare. As far as I can tell the most likely options are Ultima/Etched Pixels and Worsley Works and perhaps BH Enterprises if they still trade. For anyone who has tried kits from different sources, which did you consider easier and which are better looking?

I understand Worsley Works use all-soldered construction and, of course, I will also need to source my own roofs, bogies and fittings. I am not afraid of soldering but I am still learning with only a few 2mm association wagons finished so far.

Or is it perhaps worth trying 3D prints instead? Recreation21/Rue D'Etropal looks like an interesting alternative but I have never tried finishing anything 3d printed so find it difficult to judge how 3d prints compare to brass.

 

Secondly, I am looking for recommendations which prototypes might make my life easier.  I am modelling the Somerset and Dorset Railway in n gauge. Technically my modelling period is the early 1960s, but I must admit to the occasional service with prototypes from the 1930s through the 1950s. Of course this gives a wide range of options for kits:

• SR Bulleid 59' 3-set (Worsley, BH)
• LSWR 3 sets (Worsley)
• LMS corridor coaches (Worsley, Ultima) running alongside RTR
• LMS restaurant car  (Worsley, Ultima) running alongside RTR
• LMS non-corridor coaches (Worsley, Ultima, Recreation21)
• LMS period 1 brake vans for e.g. pigeon specials  (Worsley, Ultima)
• GWR Hawksworth brake compo (Ultima)
• S&DJR coaches (Worsley). When finished in lined SR green they only just fit the late 1930s period but I'm willing to bend some rules for actual S&DJR vehicles.

 

After a bit of research I'm still left with the following open questions:

1. How difficult did you find forming the sides? For example, Worsley Works Bulleid coach kits mention preformed sides. Is it worth picking one of these for this reason?
2. Are corridor or non corridor coaches easier to get right? I.e. is it easier to add corridor connections or get many door handles and drop lights lined up correctly?
3. How difficult did you find adding lining for e.g. BR maroon? Is it worth starting with NPCCS, non-corridor coaches or a SR prototype for this reason? How much more difficult did you find full lining for period 3 LMS and SR prototypes?
4. How easily do kit built and RTR coaches blend in a train? For example, does a single kit-built LMS coach in a rake of Graham Farish Staniers look out of place? Is it perhaps better to keep kit and RTR in separate trains? This is of course also related to the 2mm vs. n gauge consideration, as many prototypes are only available in one scale. From what I've read so far it seems 2mm and n gauge go together as long as they are not the same type of coach, but I have yet to find some photos.

 

I appreciate this is a rather long list of questions, but perhaps some of you can share your experiences from your first attempts.

 

Andreas

Edited December 7, 2021 by andreas

[Penfold]

Hi Andreas,

 

I can't comment on the types of coach you are after but here's few of general tips learned from experience with etched brass overlays onto donor shells should you need to go that route. 

 

I used etch brass overlays on early Farish coach bodies. Having cleaned off the factory finish with T-Cut and removed the areas where I wanted to use thinner glazing material I stuck the etches on with cyano. 

Tip1 - Use masking tape to create a temporary hinge on one of the long edges so you can reliably swing the etch into place exactly where it needs to go. Once you are happy then apply the glue to the shell and make the final fitment. 

Tip2 - When you clean the brass etch for painting go really sparingly with the isopropyl alchohol (car brake component cleaner works the same and has wider availability). If you flood it when cleaning then the cooling effect during evaporation will shrink the brass faster than the plastic behind, there'll be a cracking noise and the etch will have seperated from the cyano either partly or fully. 

Tip3 - if you ignored Tip1, or the cat jumped on the bench during final fit, (yep - they just know 'when' don't they..) you can use the cooling effect mentioned in Tip2 to release it and try again.

 

Happy building!

[DavidK71]

Hello! It's always good to hear from others experimenting with coach building!

 

The first thing I'd say is that it's never going to be that easy to build a 2mm/N coach, compared to (say) the N Gauge Society wagon kits, or a commercially available plastic injection kit. Whatever you end up building, you're probably going to have to get bits from other producers, and do some experimentation to find what works for you. There just isn't the market to support making complete kits that come with everything you might need.

 

Of the producers you list, Etched Pixels / Ultima are definitely easier in that Alan has made an effort to provide as much as he can, along with instructions. That said, how easy they are to build is variable, depending on the origin of the kit. For example, the older Ultima kits are usually a bit more difficult with having to do things like cut the roof to the right length. Worsley Works and BH Enterprises are both more "scratch aids", i.e. you get some parts but no instructions, and have to figure the rest out yourself. The best coach kits I've ever worked with are Chris Higgs' Masterclass Models coaches, but these were limited runs and are not now available. They do turn up occasionally on eBay, though.

 

As for 3D printing, well, several people have produced impressive results, but I've never seen a 3D printed model of a steel-sided coach in N/2mm that looked as good as etched sides. For wooden bodied coaches like Gresleys it's definitely a viable technology, but the stepping effect of printing doesn't seem to be there yet for smooth sided steel coaches. The best results going forward are likely to be etched sides with everything else 3D printed, but I don't know of anyone producing kits like that.

 

I don't have experience of every one of those coaches you list, but I'd say that the easiest to build of them would be the Etched Pixels / Ultima GWR Hawksworth brake composite: you can get all the parts, including the roof, the only other things you would need to acquire would be paint and decals for the lining and numbering.

 

The open questions you list:

1. Forming sides isn't particularly difficult. All you need is something like a brass rod to bend the coach side over. It's a bit scary the first time, but once you've got the hang of it it is easy enough.
2. I don't think it makes any difference. Representations of corridor connectors are simple enough to glue on, and generally etched sides will have the positions of holes for handles etc. already marked.
3. Lining using decals from Fox Transfers is a bit fiddly, and the lining is always going to be overscale for N/2mm, but it just takes patience and practice.
4. That is in the eye of the beholder! I do think N and 2mm coaches next to each other are noticeably a different size, and commercial coaches do look different from kit built ones - notably the windows are never as good in commercial coaches, as they are plastic inserts, while etched coach kits let you use thin glazing on thin sizes which always looks better.

Edited December 6, 2021 by DavidK71

[andreas]

Thanks for sharing your experience, David. That's exactly the kind of advice I was hoping for. Sounds like I would best start with an Ultima coach and try out fully soldered construction in a second step. I have just checked and, naturally, the Hawksworth brake compo is the only Hawksworth that's sold out. If I remember right the Hawksworth coaches are very much standardised, so I should get away with e.g. a BTK kit and a set of BCK sides plus perhaps a few fittings.

 

Out of curiosity, what made you pick the Ultima Hawksworth, as opposed to, e.g. an Ultima LMS coach? Is that related to the kits themselves or because the Hawksworth was used on its own, making it immediately useful?

 

Regarding 3d printing, if I'm not mistaken the recent Ultima Pro kits are exactly what you describe: a 3d printed body with etched overlays. Unfortunately, all relevant models are sold out.

 

[DavidK71]

Yes, the Hawksworths are all the same bodyshell (except for the sleeper), so all you really need is different sides. The Ultima kit comes with an acetate sheet for the internal corridor wall that's different, too: if you ask Alan he may have a spare one for a BCK. I think that the Ultima instructions cover all the Hawksworths.

 

I picked the Hawksworth as I do think it's the easiest of the Ultima ones. The LMS kits are definitely older, and it shows. The Hawksworth has plastic ends and a plastic roof that can be glued together, while the LMS kits have white metal ends and an extruded aluminium roof that needs to be cut to size with a hacksaw and then the join between the ends and the roof sanded and filled if you want it to look good.

 

There's a long thread from me on building some of these kits that you might have come across:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38124-building-an-n-gauge-coach-kit/

 

That starts with an Ultima Hawksworth and includes an Ultima LMS full brake too.

 

The Ultima Pro stuff I've seen looked a little crude I thought, being printed on a not-quote-smooth-enough material that the roof needed quite a bit of work. But Alan did those a few years ago and 3D printing has improved sufficiently rapidly that even a few years on the results are much better than they were.

Edited December 8, 2021 by DavidK71

[Izzy]

As far as the aspect of running N and 2mm coaches together goes my experience is don’t. It might not matter or show too much with quite early coaching stock, 4/6 wheelers etc. where sizes varied quite a bit, but with the era your covering I find it does. So if you want to make the odd vehicle to run with N RTR then I’d suggest getting an N version rather than 2mm. I say this because the likes of Worsley Works produces many in both scales. Having said that the biggest single issue I find is getting coach roofs so I generally try and find old Farish coaches to use as donors. 

 

 

[2mm Andy]

Hi Andreas,

 

I have sent you a PM regarding Ultima Hawksworth BCK kit.

 

Andy

Edited December 10, 2021 by 2mm Andy

[andreas]

On 08/12/2021 at 11:31, DavidK71 said:

There's a long thread from me on building some of these kits that you might have come across:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38124-building-an-n-gauge-coach-kit/

I finally realised why your user name looks so familiar. The thread you started was one of  the few places with information about 2mm coaches I could find. Admittedly, when I first read it I probably didn't know enough about coach building to fully understand all the details. Now that some of the fundamental questions are out of the way I found it a treasure trove with answers to questions that I would surely come across later.

By the way, your finished coaches are absolutely stunning. I still can't quite believe that the Hawksworth coach was the very first coach you've built.

As a bit of an LMS man myself, I particularly like your LMS P2 SO. Looks like I really missed out on some lovely kits now that Chris Higgs' Masterclass kits are no longer available.

 

By the way, did you ever try building an Ultima coach with a removable roof? I think you mentioned you were considering that as an alternative to fitting sides last.

 

On 08/12/2021 at 13:16, Izzy said:

As far as the aspect of running N and 2mm coaches together goes my experience is don’t. It might not matter or show too much with quite early coaching stock, 4/6 wheelers etc. where sizes varied quite a bit, but with the era your covering I find it does. So if you want to make the odd vehicle to run with N RTR then I’d suggest getting an N version rather than 2mm. I say this because the likes of Worsley Works produces many in both scales. Having said that the biggest single issue I find is getting coach roofs so I generally try and find old Farish coaches to use as donors. 

Based on your experience are these size differences also apparent when placing coaches of different scales in separate trains?

I can see that for older stock scale any scale differences might be easier to disguise. Looking at S&D photos from the 1920s and 30s the sizes and roof lines all over the place anyway. My favourite example must be the attached HC Casserley photo of Radstock from 1929.

Considering that RTR and kit likely won’t mix too well due to glazing, finish etc. and assuming size differences between N and 2FS are not too obvious as long as the coaches don't run together in a single train, I think I will try to stick to 2FS kits. There is just so much more choice. With n scale I would very quickly run out of options.

There is also a little wishful thinking that, should I ever try to fully move to 2FS, I will only need to replace the wheels. After a rather less successful attempt at converting a loco that plan is shelved for now, but I have the suspicion I may try again with a little more experience in kit/scratch building.

 

In the meantime I got myself a little Christmas. Looks like my first attempt will be a Hawksworth BCK (thanks Andy!). I also ordered an Ultima Thompson six-wheeled van for a bit of soldering practice. Both should go well with an Ivatt tank or a Collett 0-6-0 to create a typical S&D branch line train as it would have run in the mid 1960s, not too dissimilar to https://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880/h2eda4966 perhaps.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by andreas

[DavidK71]

Thanks for the compliment The Masterclass Models coaches do occasionally show up on eBay, so it's worth keeping an eye out there, and now and again someone mentions selling a few on the 2mm Association group (https://groups.io/g/twomm/)

 

I have not tried a coach with a removable roof. I can see that it could be done, but personally I find having the carcass, sides and roof all held together gives a very strong body to which the sides can be easily attached. I suspect that with a removable roof it's harder to make sure that the coach side exactly lines up with the roof all the way along with no gaps, which tend to be very noticeable. But I'm sure it could be done with enough patience.

 

That photograph is rather wonderful! A model of that would look fabulous if it had all the different heights and widths in it.

[andreas]

I thought it's worth giving a quick status update after a month and rather modest progress with the first coach. So far I have spent most of the time I managed to find over the last weeks building the underframe and bogies. I used 2FS association bogies that went together very nicely. For a change none of the axleboxes decided to come undone and play hide and seek on the carpet. However, the underframe has proven rather too much for my 25W Antex, even with the biggest bit I could find. I only managed to get the solebars soldered on with a little help from the gas hob. Let's hope the domestic authorities don't find out.

 

Next step is to fix some blemishes in the roof, build step boards and decide how to connect the bogies. Particularly for the bogies there seem to be many different options. From what I have read so far using the bogie mounts from the bogie looks more promising than the mount from the Ultima etch. Can anyone recommend a good way of attaching them (and post some pictures if possible)? 

 

Does anyone have experience with step boards? I plan to build them from 1mm brass strip. Is it enough to simply solder them on? In larger scales the preferred option seems to solder the step boards to small L-shaped pieces of wire, which have been fed through holes in the solebar and soldered on from behind. In your experience is the added strength needed in 2mm?

[1965Nick]

Like you, I’m relatively new to coach building in 2mm FS, having previously modelled in 4mm FS over 25 years ago. 
The best kits I’ve built are the Masterclass BR mark 1 kits. They go together so well, probably because of the great designing and that they’re built from nickel silver. I’ve built 1 kit from Worsley works, which wasn’t quite so well engineered and was etched from brass which seems flimsier and not so easy to work with. I’m sure you get more detail than you did with 4mm fs when I last modelled. My biggest tip is to use a powerful 60 watt iron with a fine 1mm tip, got mine cheaply from Amazon, you can get clean joints quickly. 

[DavidK71]

On 18/01/2022 at 00:07, andreas said:

Next step is to fix some blemishes in the roof, build step boards and decide how to connect the bogies. Particularly for the bogies there seem to be many different options. From what I have read so far using the bogie mounts from the bogie looks more promising than the mount from the Ultima etch. Can anyone recommend a good way of attaching them (and post some pictures if possible)?

 

I haven't got any pictures at the moment, but I'll try to describe what I do. I bought a pack of M1.6 x 5mm cheese head screws and bolts, and use these as my bogie pins. This I join to the underframe so that the screw head is inside the coach and the bolt on the outside, with the thread of the screw pointing downwards to fix the bogie onto. I put some glue on the bolt to stop it moving, then fold up the bogie mount and attach that to the underside of the coach so that it fits over the bolt, with the screw thread poking out of it. Depending on the bogie and coach, a bit of spacer material is sometimes needed to make the bogie mount a bit deeper. Next time I do this I'll try to remember to take photographs.

 

On 18/01/2022 at 00:07, andreas said:

Does anyone have experience with step boards? I plan to build them from 1mm brass strip. Is it enough to simply solder them on? In larger scales the preferred option seems to solder the step boards to small L-shaped pieces of wire, which have been fed through holes in the solebar and soldered on from behind. In your experience is the added strength needed in 2mm?

 

I've never had success with stepboards with kits that aren't designed with them in mind. For the Ultima Hawksworths I couldn't find any way to attach them that seemed likely to stay on, so just left them off. The Masterclass Models coaches have slots in the solebars for stepboards to go through, which works very well, but doesn't help you much.

[Izzy]

On 20/12/2021 at 21:17, andreas said:

Based on your experience are these size differences also apparent when placing coaches of different scales in separate trains?

 

Not to the same extent as when they are in the same one.  It very much depends on the stock involved. As the photo shows different types can be run together quite easily and not look wrong. It is probably later steel sided types where disparities show more readily, where they are much more uniform. Viewed side on from a low angle can hide things, but a 3/4 shot from above can show that the difference is both in height and width.