Backdating a Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0

[doilum]

Easingwold#2 is much smoother. Maybe the apprentice was left to fold the MSC tank! Oddly enough, the moulding ridge is pretty much in line with the upper line of Easingwold#2's tank lining.

[Ruston]

Smooth here.

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Derek-Crouch-at-NVR-cred-TSLG-1440x1080.jpg

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Ruston

[47137]

59 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Smooth here.

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Derek-Crouch-at-NVR-cred-TSLG-1440x1080.jpg

 

'Derek Crouch' does not have the cover for the reversing lever as modelled by Ixion. So when the lever is in its forward position, it is in front of the cab. Might be something to attempt on my model when its replacement arrives.

 

Like this:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97291-rmwebbrm-build-a-loco-challenge-rtr-conversion-ixion-hudswell-clarke-from-saddle-to-side-tank/&do=findComment&comment=2012269

 

I have no idea how many of the locomotives had this cover.

 

- Richard.

Edited December 18, 2021 by 47137
Added link

[47137]

On 16/12/2021 at 11:32, Ruston said:

If you want to back-date it to appear generally older, rather than being a specific loco then rivets are the main thing that you need to add.

...

Lopping off the cab is also a good trick for back-dating a loco.

 

I was unwinding with my Minerva MW and I could not help thinking, the only thing that really jars on this model is the plastic moulded cover for thesafety valves. When the model is running I cannot count the spokes on the wheels and I can barely see the rivets. What does count to emphasis the period I want to show is the weatherboard in lieu of a cab:

 

I don't have a reference book on Hudsell Clarke, but from this topic and a bit of online browsing I have these options so far:

• wheels (pricey, Slaters do the earlier 12-spoke ones but I need to find about the axle sizes and crank pins)
• side rods (difficult for me)
• sand boxes (ok)
• rivets (probably ok)
• outside cylinders (hmmm, never tried this, I've only ever cut them off)
• a different cab or no cab at all

Plus smoothing out the top of the saddle tank and other fettling.

 

I don't suppose we have other photos of a similar HC loco without a cab? I think a cabless loco would suit my railway. It would be good to keep to a prototpye with a weight of 24 tonnes or less.

 

- Richard.

[Mol_PMB]

There may not have been many without cabs, consdering that the class was introduced in 1888.

Attached is a contemporary 1888 HC 0-4-0ST which is cabless, also on the MSC contract.

MY HC book also features a photo of HC 160/1875 'The Mardy' which is an outside cylinder 0-6-0ST with a similar weatherboard.

 

There is a better selection on leedsengine:

http://www.leedsengine.info/leeds/locolist.asp

Search for [builder] like HC and [Type} like 0-6-0, sort by date built, click the box for photo. You'll get a range of options but the only cabless one I spotted was 'Ebor'. Good luck with the wheels on that one!

[Ruston]

 

 

 

I posted a photo of one of this same type that has no cab, back one page 1 of this topic. It has a riveted smokebox and although they are not clear it does seem that the tank is also rivetted. The bunker is the same design as on Stretford and Baguley, as posted by Mol, so it has to be quite an early one. It's a fairly straightforward conversion from what you already have and it meets the criteria of having a model that is back-dated to 1888, as mentioned in your OP.

Build a new bunker

Build a weatherboard

Add rivets to tank and smokebox

Job done

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Ruston

[47137]

44 minutes ago, Ruston said:

...

 

I posted a photo of one of this same type that has no cab, back one page 1 of this topic. It has a riveted smokebox and although they are not clear it does seem that the tank is also rivetted. The bunker is the same design as on Stretford and Baguley, as posted by Mol, so it has to be quite an early one. It's a fairly straightforward conversion from what you already have and it meets the criteria of having a model that is back-dated to 1888, as mentioned in your OP.

 

Dave, the cabless loco you illustrated has different frames and the footplate is lower; it is a different class of loco. Although important dimensions may match up well.

 

I could try to build this loco using the Ixion base, but in doing so I would be building a freelance loco. No harm in this, but if there is a closer prototype locomotive I would be interested to find out about it first. I am trawling through the link @Mol_PMB posted earlier today.

 

- Richard.

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by 47137
For clarity; as underlined

[Mol_PMB]

From 'The Railway Foundry Leeds' book, the 13"x20" IC 0-6-0STs were the following works numbers:

1888: 299, 300, 301, 313, 314

1889: 325, 326, 327, 328

1892: 347, 348

1893: 399, 400, 415

1895: 416

1896: 439, 440

1897: 465, 466

1898: 493, 494

1900: 541, 542, 560, 561, 566, 567

1901: 578, 579

1903: 607, 608, 654, 655, 670

1904: 671, 681, 682

1906: 705, 706

1910: 843, 844

1913: 1040

1914: 1049

1917: 1283

1920: 1429

1921: 1475

1923: 1495

1924: 1513, 1529, 1530, 1538, 1539

1927: 1585, 1586

1929: 1606, 1607

1934: 1608, 1609

1936: 1667, 1668, 1669, 1670, 1671

1937: 1674, 1675, 1676, 1681, 1682, 1683, 1684, 1685, 1686

1938: 1697, 1698, 1699, 1700

1942: 1732

1946: 1749, 1750

 

Note the apparent policy of building them in pairs pre-WWI. In most cases they went to different customers and sometimes the completion date was considerably later than it ought to have been if constructed in works order sequence (e.g.416, 1608/9). This suggests that a lot of these locos were built for stock and sold when required. In the inter-war years may of the locos were built for McAlpines.

[47137]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

There may not have been many without cabs, consdering that the class was introduced in 1888.

Attached is a contemporary 1888 HC 0-4-0ST which is cabless, also on the MSC contract.

MY HC book also features a photo of HC 160/1875 'The Mardy' which is an outside cylinder 0-6-0ST with a similar weatherboard.

 

There is a better selection on leedsengine:

http://www.leedsengine.info/leeds/locolist.asp

Search for [builder] like HC and [Type} like 0-6-0, sort by date built, click the box for photo. You'll get a range of options but the only cabless one I spotted was 'Ebor'. Good luck with the wheels on that one!

 

It is quite frustrating how Internet searches for "Hudswell Clarke" bypassed such a useful site, many thanks.

 

If I do a search for "Builder=HC" and "Type=0-6-0ST" and restrict the results to entries with photographs, then the first loco with the Ixion style cab is works no. 579 or 1901 "Countess of Warwick". I've read of these locos described as the Countess Class.

 

So it seems to me, if I want something earlier than 1901 and for my sanity I stay with inside-cylindered designs, I need to make a new cab. I could try for "Baguley" or also "Worsley" (325/1889) which looks very similar. There is a photo of the left side of "Worsley" here:

 

https://imageleicestershire.org.uk/index.php?a=QuickSearch&q=L1047&WINID=1639916988819

 

and the tool boxes will hide the flange along the bottom of the Ixion boiler.

 

I will find this easier when I have my replacement model to look at.

 

- Richard.

[Mol_PMB]

Yes, 'Worsley' was another loco built for the MSC contract - quite a lot of them went on to the GCR London extension contract after the MSC was finished.

All these early ones seem to have a very similar pattern of cab.

I think the early cab would still look archaic and be an interesting contrast to the cabless MW.

 

When the wheels are going round you won't notice the different number of spokes ;-)

[47137]

I think this is the way to go. Begin by trying to make a new cab. If I can make something good enough to blend in with the Ixion model, then proceed to try the rivets and the sand boxes. The loco would also need new cab steps and, if I dare, taper the front of the chassis block upwards. I have read somewhere, putting the Ixion superstructure into the freezer weakens the glue and helps you snap the assemblies apart.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

On 16/12/2021 at 11:32, Ruston said:

 

Looking at only the photos we have posted in this topic, it looks as though earlier locomotives like 'Trent' had cab footsteps with curved backs, and slightly later locomotives like 'Bowdon' had steps with enclosed straight sides. (My Ixion model had steps with straight edges but no sides at all).

 

So, our unidentified cabless locomotive might be a bit older than 'Bowdon' because it has a similar bunker and sides for the footplate, but the older design of steps. To my eye its weatherboard looks like a Manning Wardle / ex-E B Smith one.

 

- Richard.

[Mol_PMB]

The Leeds-based industrial loco builders were clustered together geographically and there was a lot of interaction between them. As each of their fortunes changed over the years, there was movement of staff, ideas, tooling and machinery, they even took over parts of each others' factories at various times! The story of the various firms is therefore closely interlinked and it's no surprise to find MW features on an early HC loco.

[47137]

My replacement model arrived last week. The running is just as smooth and controllable as the last model, but without the grating noise which preceded the side rod falling off.

 

 

 

This photo of Baguley is from the MSC Facebook group.

 

I expect, studying photographs will be as far as I go for a while. I would like to see my replacement model prove its reliability.

 

I had the presence of mind to save the photos posted in this topic but since removed ('Trent' and an unidentified cabless 0-6-0) so if anyone wants to review them just ask and I can send them across in a PM.

 

- Richard.

[Mol_PMB]

That's good news, I look forward to seeing further developments.

[47137]

On 27/12/2021 at 16:50, Mol_PMB said:

That's good news, I look forward to seeing further developments.

 

In my opening post I asked about feasibility of back-dating the model and at the time I didn't realise, the wheels on the Ixion model represent one of the final changes to the prototypes. Therefore to backdate the model to much anything earlier, I need to change the wheels or, as pointed out earlier, accept I cannot see the spokes when the loco is moving along.

 

I have opened up the model and made some enquiries ...

 

This is fairly self-explanatory. The entire wheel set will drop out if desired:

 

 

(1) I have exchanged correspondence with Slater's, their 12-spoke wheels p/n 7839HC are correct for earlier locomotives. These wheels use Slater's 1/8 inch axle while the Ixion model has (measured) 3.0mm axles. The Ixion axles cannot be fitted into the Slater's wheels. It would be necessary to use the Slater's axles and to open out the Ixion bearings to suit.

 

(2) A friend has explained, Slater's wheels use a 12BA screw inserted from the back and a nut as the basis for the crankpin. A very flexible arrangement, so I could imagine getting some plain 12BA pillars to pack out the holes in the Ixion side rods. The side rods are detachable by unscrewing the Ixion crankpin screws, which go in from the front.

 

(3) Because this job could "go wrong" I very much favour getting a replacement gear for the new driving axle. This would let me leave the Ixion wheels on their axles. I might even be able to sell them to recoup some of the cost of the new wheels.

 

The Ixion side rods are also wrong for an earlier loco, but somehow they don't seem to look as out of place as the modern wheels. And, I could regard them as a separate project.

 

What I do not know is the practicality of getting a new drive gear. I don't have a clue whether something can be bought, or machined up as a special. If anyone can suggest what can be done, I might proceed with new wheels.

 

- Richard.

Edited January 9, 2022 by 47137
typo

[Mol_PMB]

Any gear can be machined up as a special, for a price.

However, most gears are in accordance with a range of standard dimensions and shapes (the 'module' defines the tooth size and spacing) and it may well be that a suitable gear is available off the shelf.

It might be helpful to post a photo and dimensions of the existing gear. Is it a plain, straight-cut gear or is skew-cut to match a worm?

[ngtrains.com]

Check with slaters on axles. I think they do a reduced diameter one the will fit the Ixion loco.

 (I may have made that up from a distant memory but I know of the Ixion Fowler being rewheeled which has the same axle but it might be a different wheel centre)

 

The gear will be a standard. IIRC it’s a module 0.5 nylon spur gear. You can check the module by calculating it from the OD and number of teeth.

 

https://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p21680_spur-gear---customized-gearwheel.html&XTCsid=ph1b2jsr2uumvq0vhklbo2h4i7

 

this website will not only explain calculating the module but then sell you a gear.

 

sorry the above is a bit vague but it’s been done from a comfy arm chair, coffee to hand, cat on knee rather than my model room where I might have found reference to the wheels 

Edited January 9, 2022 by ngtrains.com

[47137]

8 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Any gear can be machined up as a special, for a price.

However, most gears are in accordance with a range of standard dimensions and shapes (the 'module' defines the tooth size and spacing) and it may well be that a suitable gear is available off the shelf.

It might be helpful to post a photo and dimensions of the existing gear. Is it a plain, straight-cut gear or is skew-cut to match a worm?

 

I dropped the wheelsets out this evening. The gear is straight-cut to mesh with another spur gear which is actually larger than this one so the final stage is an increasing ratio:

 

The diameter is a bit wishy-washy, from about 10.9 to 11.0 mm and there are 20 teeth (counted three times!) so the module is I think 11 / 20 = 0.55.

 

These is the wheelset (upside down) in case we need to discuss it:

 

and here is a view of the chassis to show the pickups and the two springs for the rear axle:

 

The pickups sit behind the wheel rims so I think these will work fine with Slater's wheels with their insulating centres.

 

Full marks to Ixion for arranging the brake rodding to simply unplug to allow the keeper plate to simply drop out, and what's more plug back into place without fuss. This is a LOT easier than some 4mm models.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

7 hours ago, ngtrains.com said:

...

sorry the above is a bit vague but it’s been done from a comfy arm chair, coffee to hand, cat on knee rather than my model room where I might have found reference to the wheels 

 

Thanks for all of this.

 

Experience with my neighbour's cat Harry (who lives in my house and indeed sleeps here given half a chance) has told me to set the one and only rule for the house: the hobby room is out of bounds. Harry knows this, but curiosity often overcomes his training. Kitchen perch:

 

How can this be comfortable?

 

- Richard.

[ngtrains.com]

Well, as mod 0.55 isn’t a thing it’s going to be module 0.5 for which a 20 tooth gear has an OD of 11mm

 

https://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p711_gearwheel-pinion-m0-5---20teeth.html

[47137]

Curses ... undone the keeper plate again to find the width of the original gear.

 

The original gear is 3.5mm wide and the sensible equivalent from kkpmo is 3mm. (The mating gear is 2mm wide).

 

Postage will be 6 Euros to the UK so I will sit back and have a think about anything else I might find useful. Very unlikely but there is no huge urgency to place the order.

 

- Richard.