J. Lyons & Co Ltd, Greenford Green Depot

[Nearholmer]

I think it’s done by aerial/satellite survey, “pinging” the ground, but how it knows solid ground from the roof of a building, or how it deals with water, or a boat on the water, I have no idea. The survey technique must also have a resolution limit, I can’t imagine that the survey grid is down to millimetres, and the software probably interpolates between measurement points. 
 

But, whatever it’s limitations, it’s higher res than contours an ordinary OS map, which I think are an extract of info from this sort of survey, modified by “on the ground” survey in very difficult spots.

 

If you pay lots of money, you can buy the data underlying the OS maps, which they sell to commercial users.

[Barclay]

On 01/03/2022 at 14:44, nomisd said:

I have always loved building Walthers kits. They are a encapsulation of what a good kit should be. I know in a scale world they are are a bit small but they are just too nice not to have. Despite the size of it, the four floor whole building took less time to build that the half relief background building. The tape is only holding one bit on! The idea of combining the kits went out of the window when I realised the fundamental flaw in my plan - roofs. Whilst I can mix and match the wall sections, I need roof parts. I  couldn't actually work out how to do it from the roof sections in the kits. Perhaps it was possible but I decided that it was over complicating things.

 

 

 

 

I will paint the windows and doors separate from the shells and put them altogether when painted. The next view is an overall view of the Lyons site from the canal

 

 

The space on the very far left  hand side is where the loco shed is going, which I have also started. The Wills Two Road North Light Roof Loco Shed should have a very prominent warning on the box - Only Take This On If You Are Really, Really Sure About Your Modelling Skills. I will let you know how sure mine are once I start cutting the roof walls...

 

The Walthers and Wills kits are indeed at the opposite end of the user-friendly scale. Walthers will fall together if you shake the box hard enough, whilst these Wills 'Craftsman' kits are really just a pile of raw materials. Each has its place though. My own engine shed is a shortened and narrowed version of the Northlight shed. The only thing not great about it is the lack of brickwork inside, which I put up with for years before finally squeezing in a sheet of Slaters brick-embossed sheet. Probably much easier to do when you're building it!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Barclay

[nomisd]

3 hours ago, Barclay said:

The only thing not great about it is the lack of brickwork inside, which I put up with for years before finally squeezing in a sheet of Slaters brick-embossed sheet. Probably much easier to do when you're building it!

 

It is funny that you say that because I had exactly that thought last night. I have some Wills flexible brick sheet that I purchased in error. Its designed to be a bridge and tunnel liner and is like the name suggests a bit thinner that normal brick sheet. I think that it act as quite a nice laminate sheet. The only thing that I can see being an issue is the windows are going to be wrong. The brick on the inside will make the window opening a lot deeper and I am wondering if this will the first outing in anger for my 3D printer?

[Fat Controller]

On the subject of rolling stock, don't forget the 'Tevan's; converted MICA insulated/ refrigerated vans used to move tea from Bristol (Avonmouth) Docks to Greenford. Hornby-Dublo, then Wrenn, used to do one, whilst Parkside/Peco do a kit.

[Barclay]

2 hours ago, nomisd said:

 

It is funny that you say that because I had exactly that thought last night. I have some Wills flexible brick sheet that I purchased in error. Its designed to be a bridge and tunnel liner and is like the name suggests a bit thinner that normal brick sheet. I think that it act as quite a nice laminate sheet. The only thing that I can see being an issue is the windows are going to be wrong. The brick on the inside will make the window opening a lot deeper and I am wondering if this will the first outing in anger for my 3D printer?

I reckon it'll look fine - that flexible sheet is quite thin.

[nomisd]

A start to the North Light roof - as long as the next one comes out the same  and I see no reason why it shouldn't, I think this may work! 

 

 

Lining the inside has worked alright too.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by nomisd

[nomisd]

The shells of all the factory buildings are now up.

 

 

 

 

My initial idea was to have the low relief buildings without track the other way round. However when I placed them like that its didn't look right with all the higher buildings in the corner.  I think it looks better this way round (but am wondering why the builders built the site like this... :-)) . I am very pleased with the overall look of it.

Edited May 20, 2022 by nomisd

[nomisd]

I have started to paint the factory buildings without track. After giving everything a quick coat of the French equivalent of Halfords primer, I started to brush paint the  window sprues.

 

 

I got bored after four and decided to order a rattle can of emerald green paint.

 

 

Much quicker but I really must overcome my fear of my air brush and just dive in and go for it (one day). When fitted it has also given them a toy like quality, I am sure this can be toned out at a later date.

 

The concrete framed buildings have (or will be for the one not yet done) a spray from a rattle can from the Army Painter range, Skeleton Bone but I think it has a fair approximation to concrete.

 

 

I am going to tackle the brick parts of this next. Which brings me to a question - what colour would 1930s brick be? I realise that is very much a "How long is a piece of string" question. You would assume that in real life there would be a good chance that the bricks to build this would have come directly by train to the site from the Bedfordshire brick fields. The scant research I have done would suggest a sort  of pinky red colour. Any advance on this?

 

The other building has had a quick going over with a Vallejo white rattle can. 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by nomisd

[Nearholmer]

at Stewartby, the brick company build a very pleasant (apart from the giant brickworks looming over it) model village for their employees, so the brick-colour there is a good example.

 

 

[Ian Smeeton]

This is the Glaxo factory at Greenford. NOt the same, but a contemporary build.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Lyons_and_Co.,_Greenford#/media/File:Grand_Union_Canal,_Greenford_-_geograph.org.uk_-_835456.jpg

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Dava]

This is an interesting thread on a seldom explored industrial railway system, however one aspect has been neglected because it is a railway where you CAN have your cake and eat it (sorry!).

 

Let me explain, I acquired the photo below a few years ago, taken by George Alliez on 21 2 50. It shows the J Lyons works Sentinel shunter, S6156. So a model of this really is essential (I am a Sentinel follower). Dapol made the model in OO for Model Rail magazine a few years back, it’s identical to the LNER Y1/Y3 Sentinel, or there are kits available (even easier in O Gauge).

 

l hope this is useful,

 

Dava

 

 

 

[nomisd]

12 hours ago, Dava said:

This is an interesting thread on a seldom explored industrial railway system, however one aspect has been neglected because it is a railway where you CAN have your cake and eat it (sorry!).

 

Let me explain, I acquired the photo below a few years ago, taken by George Alliez on 21 2 50. It shows the J Lyons works Sentinel shunter, S6156. So a model of this really is essential (I am a Sentinel follower). Dapol made the model in OO for Model Rail magazine a few years back, it’s identical to the LNER Y1/Y3 Sentinel, or there are kits available (even easier in O Gauge).

 

Nice photo, thanks for that. I was thinking about this the other day. Whilst I started this as something to do with what I had, I was giving some thought to how hard it would be (in time) to make it somewhat more prototypical. Greenford had  six standard gauge locos - five steam and one diesel. The first was a Manning Wardle K class. Interestingly this came from Pauling & Co who had a plant depot on the site that became Lyons - was this loco used to build the site? It was sold/scrapped date unknown. RT Models produces a kit of a K class in OO scale.

 

The next was a Hawthorne Leslie 0-4-0ST 12 inch loco that came second hand from Royal Arsenal , Woolwich and was not scrapped until 1957. As far as I can see there is no model of a 12 inch HL but there are 14 inch HLs. The Sentinel photo was the other steam loco that was owned by Lyons. It was obtained from Cohens in 1944 and was scrapped in 1955. 

 

The other two steam locos were both hired from GWR. One was another Sentinel. GWRs No 13. This was purchased to work at the Park Royal Trading Estate but was occasionally hired to Lyons, Herts & Middlesex handbook says between 1930 and 1933. The other was GWRs 1340. The Sentinel is available as discussed and I believe that 1340 is available as a kit.

 

The diesel was a Planet that was obtained new in 1955. It was sold to Thomas Hill in 1967 when the railway system closed who sold it to Rugby Cement for use at Barrington. It was sold back to Thomas Hill in the early 1980s; it then went to an opencast site in Scotland. It stayed there until the start of the 21st century when it ended up preserved at Tanfield. Of course a Planet is available as kit from Industrial Planet.

 

So out of the six locos used at the real world Greenford, one third of them are still in existence and all of them are sort of available as models. Which means that it would be possible to accurately model the locos used at Greenford. It was always my intention to model a freelance version of a Lyons-like site from the 1960s to the 1980s using what I already have. And I think that is what I will be doing. However.... lets never say never! I think that at least a Planet, if none of the others, will probably be obtained at some point. But a nice set of 1930s trains - a Sentinel, a 14xx and autocoach and a LNER J52 - at some point in the future can't be entirely ruled out.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by nomisd

[nomisd]

3 hours ago, Dava said:

This is an interesting thread on a seldom explored industrial railway system, however one aspect has been neglected because it is a railway where you CAN have your cake and eat it (sorry!).

 

And you are right, its not something that you see often. Industrial railways in model form do tend towards the grubbier end of the scale and I am not really sure why. I have to say that I have always have had a bit of a soft spot towards industrial railways in food factories. One of the first visits that I can remember was a visit with my dad to Batchelors Food at Wadesley Bridge in April 1980 to see their Thomas Hill. It was particularly memorable as at the end of the visit we were each given a box of Batchelors products (see IRS Record 242 for a complete record of that days visits)

[nomisd]

Well, I am not too disappointed with this

 

 

Everything seems to match and I think that the roof is going to go on correctly. However I had to walk away from it as cutting the roof was starting to fry my head. So I went onto this

 

 

I think the brickwork is far too brown - that was mainly Vallejo Burnt Red with a couple of drops of a dark grey and a few drops of flat earth. I think it needs to go more yellowy brown.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by nomisd

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, nomisd said:

Well, I am not too disappointed with this

 

 

Everything seems to match and I think that the roof is going to go on correctly. However I had to walk away from it as cutting the roof was starting to fry my head. So I went onto this

 

 

I think the brickwork is far too brown - that was mainly Vallejo Burnt Red with a couple of drops of a dark grey and a few drops of flat earth. I think it needs to go more yellowy brown.

 

I don't think your bricks are too brown.

The Aladdin lamp factory is fairly typical (i.e. architecturally unique) of the modernist industrial  period. Its  brickwork is very brown- though images of other contemporary buildings are pretty close to yours.

Some images here from 2006

https://www.flickr.com/photos/8866197@N07/808822694/in/photostream/

It looks like the brickwork had been cleaned - it's not derelict now, it's a Dunelm store- so probably about right from the 1930s when the industrial buildings round there were brand spanking new - part of the massive light industrial/consumer durables expansion that actually made that part of the country very prosperous even during the depression. By the end of the war I imagine that the brickwork would have been far more weathered. That flickr account has a lot of buildings from that era so it's worth exploring including this album

https://www.flickr.com/photos/8866197@N07/albums/72157601457576809.

 

BTW I did yesterday have a good wander (so far as I could) round the area that used to be the Rockware glass factory just to the east of Greenford road between the railway and the canal to see if any signs of it and its railways were still to be seen- zilch I'm afraid, its been completely redeveloped,  but I did get more exercise than usual on my daily walk.   

 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

Yellow stock bricks are those made from clay of the Thames basin, whereas bricks from further afield in Bedfordshire/Buckinghamshire tend to be brownish pink, and those from the Peterborough area (Flettons) very distinctly pink.

 

All can be found in London, the yellow being less common after say WW1 I think, and I also believe, but can’t be totally certain, that the colours “out of the works” have changed somewhat as production methods have changed over the years, then there is weathering!

[nomisd]

I braved the task of sticking the back scenes to wall yesterday, ably assisted by Mrs nomisd. It went a lot better than I was expecting, on  all sorts of levels.

 

 

 

 

 

The back scenes are 3 sets of id Backscenes overcast sky, 2 of set A and 1 of set B. The idea was to try and match them but the reality didn't really work out like that. We placed them all flat and decided which sheet we thought matched to the next. Once they were on the wall we realised that we were mostly wrong! Mrs nomisd thinks that there should be some sort of indication on the sheets which join with which. Overall though I am not unhappy with the end result. The ply has now been fastened down so I can now think about track.

Edited May 20, 2022 by nomisd

[nomisd]

Well since the downtime thing happened, I have done very little. However I have been cogitating on things like what track to get and what to do with the BR side of the layout. To that end I have started a thread in the layouts section. 

 

One thing that I did come across whilst browsing the Brian Webb Armstrong Whitworth book, I came across another loco that was used at Greenford and is/was available as kit, the mid 30s AW demonstrator spent a few weeks at Greenford when it was hawked around sites on test.

[nomisd]

Very little progress has been made but I have finally ordered track so that is something. What I have also managed to obtain is some of yer actual rolling stock. I now have enough vans to actually form a train!

 

 

Said train on what will eventually be the internal connection to the (real) Greenford depot. The middle line is the milk tank siding and the line on the foreground is the BR line. And a gratuitous shot of a half full sidings.

 

  

[nomisd]

Whilst I may have ordered my track, it hasn't actually arrived yet. Its coming from a French model shop and the day after I ordered it I got an email informing me of a rupture (or supply chain issue as I believe the current argot in English is for such things). Anyway they reckoned it will be about a month before it appears from Seaton  - they did offer to send my fishplates but I decided that they could all come together! I have spent this down time building the main street at the BR end of the layout (see here if you are interested). So there is nothing to report on this half of the layout.

 

However I have been thinking about a very important aspect of the layout that I should probably come to a conclusion on sooner rather than later - the hoary chestnut that is couplings. Consider this post a sort of musing out loud to try and order my thoughts (and if anyone wants to throw their 2ps worth in, based on their experience, opinion or prejudice then go right ahead). The main reason that I am posting this ramble here is that as modellers go we, industrial modellers, are probably looking for a greater amount of hands free coupling than most other  modellers so will probably have opinions on it (not that other don't but oh you know what I mean).

 

The way I see it I have three options: 1) the factory fitted loop and hooks 2) Kadees 3) 3 links. I know that other options are available (eg Greenwich) but I think that my practical choices (for stuff like ease of availability, amount of fettling required, etc) I have these three options.  Given my criteria for hands free uncoupling, option 3 is a non-starter and its fiddly in 4mm. Its hard enough in 7mm. Which leaves me two options.

 

Now option 1 is, well lets face it, ugly. Its ugly on the rolling stock and it would be ugly on the track having at least 11 (off the top of my head) uncoupling ramps on the layout. But its efficient, there is absolutely no modification to any out of the box rolling stock required (kit built a bit different but not rocket science). And I have to say, there is a certain amount of nostalgic pull to it as a system - I have very fond memories of playing trains with a sprung uncoupling ramp on my train set as a kid.

 

That brings us to option 2. I like Kadees - they look like they should be on a railway vehicle (whether they should be on BR locos and wagons of the 1960s to 80s is another question), they are pretty efficient, the infrastructure to operate them (ie a whacking great magnet) can easily be lost under the track (especially as it is my intention put the track on Woodlands Scenics track underlay. I have a load of the magnets as I considered Kadees for my previous layout so got the starter pack of couplings and magnets and whathaveyou. I would have to change all the couplings. And the problem of non NEM fitted rolling stock (old and kit built) is a bigger but not insurmountable problem.

 

Now obviously the reason I have to decided before I start laying track in anger is because if I go for option 2, the magnets have to go down as part of that track laying. So what am I going to do? Answers on a postcard!

[Nick Holliday]

As you seem to have a relatively small number of vehicles to deal with at the moment, I would suggest you reconsider some of the other coupling options.  The Greenwich coupling does look challenging, but it was intended for narrow gauge modellers, who would not be dealing with RTR stock. Sprat & Winkle and Flippem are probably more user friendly for this purpose, although I have no personal experience of either, but they have been discussed extensively on RMweb, and the Alex Jackson couplings have been in use for over fifty years, and once you have started with AJ’s, the only supply issues are finding the necessary wires. The AJ coupling in particular is almost invisible, but all are more discreet the the moulded tension locks, although the latter can apparently be converted fairly simply to magnetic operation.

[Ruston]

19 hours ago, nomisd said:

The main reason that I am posting this ramble here is that as modellers go we, industrial modellers, are probably looking for a greater amount of hands free coupling than most other  modellers so will probably have opinions on it (not that other don't but oh you know what I mean).

Hands-free is nice in theory but it's the uglification (yes, it is a word cos I say it is 😁) of models by sticking any form hands-free coupling on that means it's not worth it. Personally, I find Kaydees to be the worst for UK stock. They are fine for US models, but just look so wrong, ugly and out of place on UK stock.

 

Another thing is that whether it's by ramps or magnets under the baseboard, you're stuck with being able to uncouple in only fixed places.

 

Dinghams are the least ugly and as one end only has a hook, they don't look too bad at all. I tried them for a while but got fed up of having fixed points to uncouple and went to 3-links. They're the only way for me now. 100% prototypical, completely reliable and no extra cost or things to go wrong. I find that having to actually couple stuff up makes operation more interesting than running and engine up to a train and instantly reversing it and driving off.

 

 

[Barclay]

Agreed - 3 links every time for me.

[Pacific231G]

On 10/06/2022 at 11:15, Ruston said:

Hands-free is nice in theory but it's the uglification (yes, it is a word cos I say it is 😁) of models by sticking any form hands-free coupling on that means it's not worth it. Personally, I find Kaydees to be the worst for UK stock. They are fine for US models, but just look so wrong, ugly and out of place on UK stock.

 

Another thing is that whether it's by ramps or magnets under the baseboard, you're stuck with being able to uncouple in only fixed places.

 

Dinghams are the least ugly and as one end only has a hook, they don't look too bad at all. I tried them for a while but got fed up of having fixed points to uncouple and went to 3-links. They're the only way for me now. 100% prototypical, completely reliable and no extra cost or things to go wrong. I find that having to actually couple stuff up makes operation more interesting than running and engine up to a train and instantly reversing it and driving off.

 

 

I use Kadees on H0 French stock and find them less obtrusive than either tension lock or hinged loops and, though not prototypical for British/European stock (thanks to lack of agreement within the UIC in the 1950s when considering the rather similar looking Willison coupling) they do at least look like they belong on a railway vehicle. 

It is possible to uncouple Kadees anywhere with a suitable tool (which can be a simple as a wooden skewer)  and I note that many US modellers don't use magnets at all but uncouple manually, often removing the steel 'coupling  pin'. Kadees are not completely reliable wth fixed axle stock as there's too much slop in the track/wheel interface but I've been using them for years and prefer them to anything else I've used. I don't find dinghams particularly unobtrusive and the least obtrusive has to be the Alex Jackson- though I've not tried making them.

 

I'm afraid that I simply don't have a steady enough hand to use three link couplings without derailing stock but if you do then it may well be worth trying. Obviously, every location where you may need to couple and uncouple with a shunting pole needs be within reaosnable reach.

It's probabyl worth fitting a few vehicles and a loco with the candidate coupler and seeing how you get on with it before comitting to it for the entire fleet. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Pacific231G

[nomisd]

There is nothing like a bit of procrastination....

 

I have spent the last 18 months coming to a conclusion on how I am going to control this layout - analogue or digital. I know that 18 months to come to a decision seems excessive but there was a lot to think about. On the one hand there was DC - tried and true, a bit of a pain to prepare for (building a control panel, wiring switches and so on), no modification (and extra expense) to locos and I already have a Gaugemaster TS controller. Against DCC which with seemingly minimal set up a whole world of stuff is available but it strikes me as relatively costly for an initial set up and if you go bells and whistles (literally) on the locos the cost of those start to become eyewatering (even though this is ostensibly an industrial layout, there is a large element of mainline so more than one mainline loco is required to stop it being dull for me to operate). 

 

So for the last two years I have vacillated between the two options. Every time I thought I had decided something made me reconsider. In the spirit of a new year, I decided that it was time to pick one or be forever in a spiral of indecision. So I have gone analogue. I think if I didn't already have the controller it may have been a different conclusion but that in the end swayed it. I will admit not to actually looking forward to building a control panel but its not beyond my capabilities, just that soldering isn't my favourite thing to do. As its a one time thing, I am mulling over an all singing and dancing control panel that shows set routes lit up. However, that will be at the very edge of my skills and that double slip does complicate things...

 

So in this new found head space of progress, I finally got round to ordering my point motors last night (even though I could have done this months ago as the DC/DCC conundrum meant no difference to the choice of point motors!) which means that I may actually have started track laying before the summer is here.