Cyril Fry and Drew Donaldson

[Haggerleases]

Hi all.

 

Does anyone know if Cyril Fry and Drew Donaldson built their Irish Locos and stock in coarse, or finescale?

From looking at various images they seem to be coarse, but I may well be wrong.

 

Kind regards

 

Stew.

[jhb171achil]

The models are to a standard that would grace many a finescale layout, but the actual wheels, equipment, 3rd rail stuff, etc., is very defitinetly coarse scale. If you are ever in Malahide ping me in advance and I'll show you round.

[Haggerleases]

Ah, brilliant, thanks for that info. I've seen a lot of pictures of their locos, and they are just beautiful models. I've never been to Ireland, but now I have a reason to visit! 

I will put that high on my to do list. 

 

Stew.

[jhb171achil]

On 10/06/2022 at 19:05, Haggerleases said:

Ah, brilliant, thanks for that info. I've seen a lot of pictures of their locos, and they are just beautiful models. I've never been to Ireland, but now I have a reason to visit! 

I will put that high on my to do list. 

 

Stew.

You'll be very welcome! If you're at the model railway museum in Malahide, gimme a shout as I'm involved with it on a consultancy basis.

Edited June 12, 2022 by jhb171achil

[jhb171achil]

I should add that Donaldson and Fry knew each other, and several of Donaldson's models were built for him by Fry.

[Haggerleases]

From looking closely at the photos on the Irish Railways modelling site, the paneling on some of Cyril Fry's blue and white MGWR coaches seems to be painted on! I couldn't tell at first, but when zoomed in, you can see how it's all painted on with a kind of 3D effect, very cleverly done, and extremely effective! 

 

Stew.

 

[jhb171achil]

On 13/06/2022 at 08:46, Haggerleases said:

From looking closely at the photos on the Irish Railways modelling site, the paneling on some of Cyril Fry's blue and white MGWR coaches seems to be painted on! I couldn't tell at first, but when zoomed in, you can see how it's all painted on with a kind of 3D effect, very cleverly done, and extremely effective! 

 

Stew.

 

Correct - all his panelling on all his models is painted on! Come to Malahide and see the models.........!

[Haggerleases]

Don't worry, it's on my to-do list!

Seeing the paneling done like that is a big boost for people like me who worry about cutting out the intricate panels on coaches. It's nice if you can, but Cyril's models show that there's no need, and an excellent and very convincing result can still be achieved with careful painting/lining etc. 

 

Stew.

[jhb171achil]

On 17/06/2022 at 11:49, Haggerleases said:

Don't worry, it's on my to-do list!

Seeing the paneling done like that is a big boost for people like me who worry about cutting out the intricate panels on coaches. It's nice if you can, but Cyril's models show that there's no need, and an excellent and very convincing result can still be achieved with careful painting/lining etc. 

 

Stew.

Indeed. Also, if you look at some of the older tinplate "bought" models, and even 1990s Bachmann or Hornby offerings in "heritage" liveries, lining and panelling can be printed onto smooth surfaces and still look quite good.

[leslie10646]

At the time when I was occasionally allowed to work The Branch on Drew's railway, I formed a very high opinion of his workmanship. Looking at the work at exhibitions in London a few years later, I thought that Drew's stuff would stand up well to the best of it.

 

One thing I can state is that his coaches had no floors or interiors, so I guess that rules out the notion of "Finescale". The reason was simple enough, it was so that his CLOCKWORK locos could pull scale length trains.

 

Someone nearer to Cultra might be able to comment further?

[Nearholmer]

On 21/06/2022 at 22:02, jhb171achil said:

Also, if you look at some of the older tinplate "bought" models,

The vast majority of tinplate stock is printed with very little relief, sometimes the door edges are pressed-out to highlight them, sometimes window surrounds to add strength, and sometimes duckets.

 

If you want to see the true masterworks of tin-printing, look for Carette models which were all made pre-WW1. The GWR ones are probably best, so good that several are displayed in the ‘Steam’ museum at Swindon to exemplify the GWR look. The printed livery is as good as the very best modern 0 scale.

 

Some modern tinplate stock is very good indeed, but doesn’t surpass Carette.

 

Hete we are, c1912. Notice the relieving lines inside the cream panels. All litho printed.

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Colin_McLeod]

On 08/11/2022 at 14:43, leslie10646 said:

At the time when I was occasionally allowed to work The Branch on Drew's railway...

 

 

Ah, those were the days.  Many a Tuesday evening spent in the Lisburn Road running trains.  First visit it was just watch, then I was allowed to work the branch, and later under direct supervision, allowed to box* the occasional locomotive for a main line run with a full rake of dark green bogies.

 

Every operating session was followed by a welcome pot of Drew's tea and biscuits with his beloved cat hoping to get some for himself.

 

 

* Drew refered to winding up the loco as 'boxing' . Each turn of the key represented one box of coal.  He knew just how many boxes were needed based on which loco, size of train and distance to be covered.  It was very satisfying to watch a heavy train accelerate naturally, and then glide to a halt within an inch or two of the end of the platform.

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

and later under direct supervision, allowed to box* the occasional locomotive for a main line run with a full rake of dark green bogies.

 

I’d be interested to know what sorts of run distances you were getting out of clockwork locos pulling decent length trains. Do you recall?

 

It teases at my mind, because even the best of the ‘clockers’ that I’ve got doesn’t have great endurance.

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

The railway room was the top floor of the house and would have been about 12 to 15 feet square.

 

I can't recall the exact track layout  but a mainline run would involve two complete circuits of the room.

[Nearholmer]

Many thanks, and interestingly that does tally with my experience in that my former layout was c15ft x 10ft and two circuits was about it with a train.
 

I’d guess he was using the very best mechanisms, and fettling his stock to be very free-running, so was able to pull longer trains, but the distance seems pretty much fixed by the physical limits on the size of spring that will fit in an 0 gauge loco.

[Irish Padre]

Drew taught at a very prestigious school and took a very academic view of his locomotive work. Detailed notes and calculations of his can still be viewed on the online Gauge O Guild magazine archive. Locos and mechanisms were carefully matched to replicate prototypical capabilities. Drew was a serious student of loco performance in real life, and one of Ireland’s analogues of C J Allen or Peter Semmens.  His layout was a very old school system in that the timetable and not the scenery (I don’t recall any!) was king. I saw it once and remember three things, which fascinated me at the age of 6. One - the fact that the layout dominated a floor of the house (I dimly recall a hole in the wall between rooms). This struck me as a highly desirable domestic arrangement. Two - the noise and presence of O gauge clockwork. It took me many years but Irish 7mm has proved the only satisfying modelling I have known. I blame Drew! Third - the cat. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Irish Padre

[jhb171achil]

14 hours ago, Irish Padre said:

Drew taught at a very prestigious school and took a very academic view of his locomotive work. Detailed notes and calculations of his can still be viewed on the online Gauge O Guild magazine archive. Locos and mechanisms were carefully matched to replicate prototypical capabilities. Drew was a serious student of loco performance in real life, and one of Ireland’s analogues of C J Allen or Peter Semmens.  His layout was a very old school system in that the timetable and not the scenery (I don’t recall any!) was king. I saw it once and remember three things, which fascinated me at the age of 6. One - the fact that the layout dominated a floor of the house (I dimly recall a hole in the wall between rooms). This struck me as a highly desirable domestic arrangement. Two - the noise and presence of O gauge clockwork. It took me many years but Irish 7mm has proved the only satisfying modelling I have known. I blame Drew! Third - the cat. 

The "cat" was watching you.

 

And taking notes.......

[Irish Padre]

In Irish. And in green ink.

[Colin_McLeod]

Translated directly from Latin.

[Irish Padre]

He was an incredible character and quite the polymath. His written pieces are still most entertaining to read.
 

About a mile or so away from Drew lived a man called Fred Graham who was the other great clockwork builder in Belfast. His models can still pass muster when re wheeled to FS- he modelled GN locos including the splendid big blue ones. Fred was a very quiet man with a deep Christian faith. In almost every respect he was dissimilar to Drew but they had a wonderful mutual bond in the skill they shared. 206 is Fred’s work in the pic below. She compares very well to the examples built by modern craftsmen beside her. The height of smoke deflectors did vary in real

life amongst the VS! Pic from Antony Ragg.
 

I suspect at least one of the black engines to be Fred’s https://www.rmweb.co.uk/index.php?/profile/17353-antony/content/page/2/&type=forums_topic_post

This is Drew himself, for those who never knew him.. ….link to JM
Allen’s Flickr. 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Irish Padre

[Colin_McLeod]

Two great pictures @Irish Padre