North British class 21/29 Livery question

[Dan Griffin]

Good Moring

 

i have recently obtained a Hornby 'class 29' D6110 in all over BR green, yellow ends and centre headcode box. 

 

is this livery correct? most of the images i see of these loco's they seem to have a light green band along the top of the bodysides. 

 

There is a picture on the Hattons Website of one that appears to be all over green but i am not convinced that's just the angle the picture is taken at.

 

In the book 'the heyday of Scottish diesels' on page 63 there is a photo which appears all over green too, but again its a head on shot so is not 100% clear. 

 

 

this image from Wikipedia seems to be all over green too. 

 

does anyone have the definitive answer? Did some D61XX diesels carry all over green?

 

[GordonC]

 

Its really hard to see in lots of pictures. Not many are in colour and those that are in black and white could well be BR Blue with the white arrows so need care to look at the yellow panel shape on the nose. I think there's probably too much of a difference in colours between above, at the angle and below to just be reflections and/or grot. It looks a very neat change in reflections just at the cabside window to not have been a white stripe

 

One did escape out without getting its nose-job done, but there must have been too much changing in the re-enginning for them not to have been fully repainted at the same time or a patchwork would have been obvious. I'd suggest that when Dapol brought their Class 29 out in 4 livery variations and all over green didn't feature, that all over green probably didn't happen.

 

Probably more likely Hornby tried applying Class 21 livery to their Class 29 tooling!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by GordonC

[slow8dirty]

The "North British Type 2" by Anthony P Sayer is the definitive guide for the details of these loco's and their liveries. Off the top of my head all the 29s were at first in two Tone green with maybe some of the latter conversions being outshopped in blue? The two photos posted at quick glance appear green, but to my eye, on closer inspection look to be pretty grubby 2 tone green.

I'm sure someone who knows will be along to confirm shortly, but if not I'll dig my copy out and confirm for you when I get back from work.

[Halvarras]

All original Class 21s were plain green without stripe - all Class 29 modifications which received two-tone green livery had two-tone green with stripe  (those Class 29s which received blue livery were never painted two-tone green, being outshopped in 1967). I agree that the lighter Sherwood green upper panels can be difficult to make out as the inward slant from waist height reflects the light differently - many years ago I had a 1963 copy of 'Modern Railways' magazine which included a photo of the first Class 29 conversion, D6123, with a caption stating it was in two-tone green - due to that light reflection on the ex-works bodyside it wasn't obvious what it was referring to, it was only many years later when colour photos began to circulate that all became clear.

 

That first conversion, D6123, was the only Class 29 to retain its headcode discs, the 19 which followed during 1965-7 all received the centre headcode panels. Conversely, all unmodified Class 21s retained the discs except D6109 which it is understood was selected for conversion but at a late stage found to be unsuitable - this became the sole Class 21 with headcode panels and blue livery.

 

All Class 29s in two-tone green eventually received full yellow ends, some such as 6112 very late in the day (thus not the best selection by Dapol), which looked rather odd on disc-fitted 6123.

 

Unfortunately poor research by Hornby messed up their Class 29 - the 21-to-29 conversion process involved far more than sticking headcode panels on the ends, there were also changes to ventilation and engine exhaust arrangements. It would have helped if they had at least based it on the production locos with single large radiator side grille but no, the model has the Pilot Scheme locos' (D6100-9) twin radiator grilles which were quickly modified to single when engine cooling problems became apparent. Even some of the running numbers selected were incorrect - D6110 was never a Class 29! Presumably Hornby also regarded the narrow cab window corner pillars as a weak point if produced to scale so beefed them up, which did nothing for its looks. Following shortly after the Class 25, still highly regarded in some quarters, this model was a major disappointment! However it did have wire cab door handrails and very nicely moulded bogie sideframes. Also very many Class 22 conversions over the years would have been impossible if it had never existed 😀

[keefer]

There might be something in the 6 pages of this thread from the Transition Diesel Liveries section:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/47894-sad-eyed-people-the-class-21-and-29-livery-resource/

[BrushVeteran]

Although pretty filthy the lighter green upper section can be made out in my image of 6132 at Glasgow Queen St. in August 1971. I think this was the last one left running at that time.