Sleeper trains 1991 - 1995

[125_driver]

I am looking into the coaching stock on the intercity sleeper services to the south west in the early 1990s. 

 

Does anyone have the stock formations for the London to Penzance as well as the Glasgow to Plymouth " Westcountrymen" sleeper services? 

 

I'm confident its 4 or 5 SLEP mk3 coaches,  but am far less sure on the Mk1 and mk2 stock that accompanied the mk3s in this specific period prior to privatisation.....

 

Any help appreciated many thanks. 

[GordonC]

Was the Glasgow to Plymouth sleeper still running in the early 1990s? I'm not sure when it stopped but would have expected it to be before then

[hexagon789]

10 minutes ago, GordonC said:

Was the Glasgow to Plymouth sleeper still running in the early 1990s? I'm not sure when it stopped but would have expected it to be before then

I think it was 1990 when all the services that don't survive today were culled?

 

Including Euston/Stranraer, Barrow-Euston and so on...

[tiger]

I took a sleeper from Edinburgh to Bristol and return in December 1992, so the Cross Country sleepers were still running then. I presume, although I can’t specifically remember, that there was a portion working from Glasgow which attached at Carstairs. (Edited - see post below) I also recall that at one time this sleeper divided at Birmingham New Street with a portion for Poole - again I can’t recall if this was still the case in 1992. There must have been a fair bit of shunting involved at BNS if both the Edinburgh and Glasgow portions included sleepers for Poole and Plymouth.

 

As the sleeper continued on to Plymouth, I was turfed out at Bristol at around 5 am onto a freezing, foggy platform! With nothing to do until much later in the morning I watched a series of HSTs departing for London, including one which arrived from Weston-Super-Mare with the front power car covered in streaks of oil with the engine shut down, the driver swearing blue murder at the fitters who met the train. Needless to say the fitters were unable to rectify the problem and the HST departed, late, with the rear power car doing all the work!

 

For the return journey to Edinburgh, the train departed Bristol quite late in the evening, having come up from Plymouth. I can see why these trains no longer exist - it was a long cold wait even for someone interested railways.

 

Unfortunately for the OP I didn’t record the formation of the train. I think it had a Mk2f RFB (12xx number series, not one of the 67xx lounge cars) and just Mk3A SLE/SLEP and a BG brake. I don’t recall whether there were any other seated coaches.

Edited August 23, 2022 by tiger
Updated information

[tiger]

I found some information on another forum including a message from one poster who states that the 1992 train formation was:

 

GUV-GUV-NHA-SLE-SLEP-RFO(T)-SLE-SLEP

 

It is also stated that the route in 1992 was Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - Plymouth and return, ie no portion working. From memory the daytime InterCity Cross Country trains stopped splitting and joining at Carstairs at the end of get summer 1990 timetable - so maybe the sleeper stopped portion working then too?

 

Hope that helps

 

Tom.

[125_driver]

10 hours ago, tiger said:

I found some information on another forum including a message from one poster who states that the 1992 train formation was:

 

GUV-GUV-NHA-SLE-SLEP-RFO(T)-SLE-SLEP

 

It is also stated that the route in 1992 was Glasgow - Edinburgh (reverse) - Plymouth and return, ie no portion working. From memory the daytime InterCity Cross Country trains stopped splitting and joining at Carstairs at the end of get summer 1990 timetable - so maybe the sleeper stopped portion working then too?

 

Hope that helps

 

Tom.

Very useful thanks. Just to clarify  a GUV , is that one of those mk1 van type things? Also what is an NHA?

 

Re sleeper dates the Glasgow to Plymouth finished in May 1995, of that I'm fairly sure. The Poole portion ended circa 1992. 

[tiger]

On 23/08/2022 at 21:55, 125_driver said:

Very useful thanks. Just to clarify  a GUV , is that one of those mk1 van type things? Also what is an NHA?

 

Re sleeper dates the Glasgow to Plymouth finished in May 1995, of that I'm fairly sure. The Poole portion ended circa 1992. 

GUV was used as a covered Motorail van by InterCity, following the demise of open Motorail car flats. This is a GUV: (Flickr link, not my original photo)

 

NHA is an air-braked Mk1 gangwayed brake (BG) like this: (again, not my original photo)

 

 

hope that helps!

 

Tom.

Edited August 25, 2022 by tiger
More information on GUV

[hexagon789]

GUV - General Utility Van

[Hibelroad]

I have got to say whoever weathered that GUV has gone way over the top, a real mess, and they forgot to weather the tail lamp.😁

[125_driver]

So would it be reasonable to suggest the following?? Any thoughts?

 

Night Riviera

BSO, TSO, RFB, 4 Slep BG, slep (with bg and back slep off at plymouth)

 

Westcounteymen (ex Glasgow)

GuV, NHA, 2 slep RFO 2 slept

 

Was there a motorail option on either of these trains in the early 1990s period? Or was the motorrail vans used for other purposes by this time? 

 

Thanks.

[USRailFan]

This video shows the Night Riviera in February 1992, composed of Mk2 BFK (non-AC?)-2 Mk2 TSO (presumably AC)-3 Mk3 Sleepers. I guess 1-2 more Mk3 Sleepers and a BG had been detached at Plymouth.

[USRailFan]

Another video, from Summer 1993, showing the Caledonian Sleeper (presumably the Aberdeen section), with a formation that seems to be 3 Motorail GUVs - Mk1 BG - 2 Mk2 TSO - Mk2 FO (RFO(T) possibly?) - 7 Mk3 Sleepers - Mk1 BG. My guess would be that the train would've ran with this formation all the way from Euston, only changing from a Class 86/87/90 to the dual 37s at Edinburgh (presumably).

[nightstar.train]

4 hours ago, USRailFan said:

This video shows the Night Riviera in February 1992, composed of Mk2 BFK (non-AC?)-2 Mk2 TSO (presumably AC)-3 Mk3 Sleepers. I guess 1-2 more Mk3 Sleepers and a BG had been detached at Plymouth.

 

It's a Mk2D BFK and is AC, they did make a few AC BFKs. 

 

3 hours ago, USRailFan said:

Another video, from Summer 1993, showing the Caledonian Sleeper (presumably the Aberdeen section), with a formation that seems to be 3 Motorail GUVs - Mk1 BG - 2 Mk2 TSO - Mk2 FO (RFO(T) possibly?) - 7 Mk3 Sleepers - Mk1 BG. My guess would be that the train would've ran with this formation all the way from Euston, only changing from a Class 86/87/90 to the dual 37s at Edinburgh (presumably).

 

One of the BGs will be a generator van as both those 37s are freight engines and don't have ETH capability. I think it's the rear one, but the video is a bit blurry. Three BGs (6311-13) were converted as generator vans for use on the Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers. All three are still with us, 6311 with LSL, 6312 with WCRC and 6313 with the VSOE Pullman. 

[USRailFan]

To further hijack this thread, does anyone have the exact formation for the Euston - Glasgow and Plymouth - Glasgow sleeper in the 1991-92 timetable (which I think was the last timetable it had regular seating cars?). I know they likely both had GUVs still at this time, and I think the Plymouth - Glasgow also dropped off a BG, 2 sleepers and a seater (TSO probably) at Carlisle?

Edited January 29, 2023 by USRailFan

[USRailFan]

18 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

 

It's a Mk2D BFK and is AC, they did make a few AC BFKs. 

 

 

One of the BGs will be a generator van as both those 37s are freight engines and don't have ETH capability. I think it's the rear one, but the video is a bit blurry. Three BGs (6311-13) were converted as generator vans for use on the Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers. All three are still with us, 6311 with LSL, 6312 with WCRC and 6313 with the VSOE Pullman. 

Yes, I did check the 1992 "Locomotives & Coaching Stock" and it seems the majority of the Mk2d BFKs in IC colors belonged to Western Region

[keefer]

On 28/01/2023 at 18:26, USRailFan said:

Another video, from Summer 1993, showing the Caledonian Sleeper (presumably the Aberdeen section), with a formation that seems to be 3 Motorail GUVs - Mk1 BG - 2 Mk2 TSO - Mk2 FO (RFO(T) possibly?) - 7 Mk3 Sleepers - Mk1 BG. My guess would be that the train would've ran with this formation all the way from Euston, only changing from a Class 86/87/90 to the dual 37s at Edinburgh (presumably).

The rear BG is the generator van, you can see where one of the double doors has been replaced with the flat roller-shutter. The first class coach will be either an FO(t) or, possibly more likely an RFB (as used on some Cross-Country sets). The first (right-hand-most) bay seems lit differently so could be the buffet counter.

The other option could be an RLO lounge car but i don't think they were branded/striped as 1st class.

Away from my books at the 'mo so unsure of the exact timeline/use of the different coaches.

[keefer]

On 28/01/2023 at 17:27, USRailFan said:

This video shows the Night Riviera in February 1992, composed of Mk2 BFK (non-AC?)-2 Mk2 TSO (presumably AC)-3 Mk3 Sleepers. I guess 1-2 more Mk3 Sleepers and a BG had been detached at Plymouth.

Definitely a Mk2d a/c BFK - previous Mk2-2c BFK had normal windows and Mk2e/f did not have a BFK, they were BSO only.

The first TSO is one of the Mk2f(?) high-density conversions from FO (only 7 saloon windows and seats don't line up with the windows).

The second TSO is a Mk2d (a/c coach with both toilets on same side, Mk2e/f had one toilet each side at opposite ends).

The Sleepers are (unusually) all SLEP (two opaque windows [toilet and attendant's compartment] and 12 berths) - i think the norm was 1 SLEP to 1 or 2 SLE (1 opaque toilet window and 13 berths)

[USRailFan]

8 hours ago, keefer said:

Definitely a Mk2d a/c BFK - previous Mk2-2c BFK had normal windows and Mk2e/f did not have a BFK, they were BSO only.

The first TSO is one of the Mk2f(?) high-density conversions from FO (only 7 saloon windows and seats don't line up with the windows).

The second TSO is a Mk2d (a/c coach with both toilets on same side, Mk2e/f had one toilet each side at opposite ends).

The Sleepers are (unusually) all SLEP (two opaque windows [toilet and attendant's compartment] and 12 berths) - i think the norm was 1 SLEP to 1 or 2 SLE (1 opaque toilet window and 13 berths)

You sure about the High-Density TSO? Seems like a weird choice for a night train, wouldn't the downclassed FOs that still had 1+2 seating be a better choice?

[keefer]

I did wonder but it looks to me like there are single rows of seats i.e. with no large table

[USRailFan]

On 22/08/2022 at 22:34, GordonC said:

Was the Glasgow to Plymouth sleeper still running in the early 1990s? I'm not sure when it stopped but would have expected it to be before then

This video (also from early 1992) seems to show the Glasgow - Plymouth running through Exeter St Davids at around 4:35: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--0t_HUQnEM&t=629s
Formation at that time looks like 2 TSO - RFB - 4 SLE/SLEP - BG

Edited February 1, 2023 by USRailFan

[USRailFan]

Video from Watford Junction in summer 1991 seems to show two (presumably northbound) night trains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXC7aF-zm8Y&t=602s
The first one is at around 4:15, hauled by a Class 87 and has a pretty weird formation of 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP, 1 TSO, 2 BSO with the van areas facing each other, 2 TSO. Strangely large amount of seating cars for a night train of that era, possibly a transfer of extra stock (with the 1 TSO and BSO being the "standard" seating?). Possibly the Fort Bill train? Or possibly some charter service (but would they have had Motorail)?
The second one is at around 10:25, hauled by a Class 90 with a formation that looks like 4 Motorail GUVs, 6 SLE/SLEP, 1 RLO, 3 SLE/SLEP, TSO, BSO. Probably the Euston - Glasgow or possibly Euston - Edinburgh sleeper?

Edited February 1, 2023 by USRailFan

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 23/08/2022 at 17:41, Hibelroad said:

and they forgot to weather the tail lamp.

Makes a change from weathering with the tail lamp in situ and leaving a clean area behind it.

[USRailFan]

On 30/01/2023 at 11:16, keefer said:

I did wonder but it looks to me like there are single rows of seats i.e. with no large table

According to the 1992 "Locomotives & Coaching Stock" all the 6800-6829 series TSOs (which I presume are the "high density" ones, given that they are listed with 74 seats compared to 64 for regular TSOs) belonged to either East Anglia or Midland Mainline in early 1992. However Old Oak Commons had a few of the 58-seat ex-FO 6200-6236 series, although they seem to be Mk2d

[keefer]

3 hours ago, USRailFan said:

However Old Oak Commons had a few of the 58-seat ex-FO 6200-6236 series, although they seem to be Mk2d

That would make more sense, to tell the truth I forgot about those ones!

They were mainly tables with some single rows just as a means of getting the ex-FO nearer to the capacity of a TSO - the 'cram as many in' conversions (with only about 4 tables and the rest single rows) came later.

It's all covered in the Harris Mk2 book but can't find my copy at the moment!

[USRailFan]

Inverness Sleeper in late summer 1991: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I804o82eoTM&ab_channel=NeilHaytonRailwayMemories

Looks like TSO-BSO (vith van facing sleepers) - 3 SLE/SLEP - RLO (presumably) - 5-6 SLE/SLEP and then presumably Motorail GUVs on the rear (which we don't see)