Erratic running of Fleischmann re 465s - anyone else experienced this?

[Michanglais]

 

I've got two brand new re 465s from Fleischmann. One is DC and the other DCC sound, tho I run it on DC for the time being.

 

Both ran fine when I got them but both have developed issues of not starting when the power is applied (although the lights come on so it wouldn't appear to be a pick-up problem). They'll run fine once given a little push... for a while, then they both stall (lights still on), stutter, refuse to run under their own power even if pushed along a bit and they're both very slow runners. 

 

I kinda don't want to send them back to the shop if it's a common problem. I'd use them both on a static diorama I've got planned (I've not got the space for a permanent layout and run them on Kato Unitrack on a hard floor) but if it's the locos themselves and I've just been unlucky I wouldn't want to not be able to sell them on at a future stage should I want to because that wouldn't be very fair to the buyer, so I'd like to get the problem solved if needs be.

 

I don't really want to fiddle, so as not to affect the guarantee (plus I don't fancy the idea of struggling with N scale).

 

Anyone else come across this problem/found a solution?

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

 

[Gottardo]

I have had similar problems with my Fleischmann Re460/465's and newer Re4/4's and soft motor brushes appear to be the main cause. 

I remove the brushes/springs and clean any carbon debris from the commutator using an aerosol electronic cleaner. This usually does the trick. I have never found it necessary to actually renew the brushes and after the initial cleaning they have tended to remain trouble free. It's as if the initial bedding in of the new brushes gets rid of the softer material and they then harden with use.

Some reports say that touching the end of the brushes with a hot soldering iron until they stop smoking hardens the brushes but I can't really confirm this. I think this is more likely to be required if the brushes have been contaminated by excess lubrication, a problem many Fleischmann locos suffer from when leaving the factory.

Removing the brushes and cleaning is straightforward once the body is removed although it will be more fiddly on your sound locos because of the extra wiring.

If you don't feel confident enough to do it yourself I would return the locos to a dealer. Attempting to run them in this condition could lead to overheating and in the case of the sound locos some expensive damage.

[Michanglais]

 

Thanks for the extensive response!

 

I think they are going to have to go back to the dealer. I wouldn't feel confident enough to fiddle with such delicate and small mechanisms (I've got two left hands - and I'm right-handed...). I also don't know enough about motors to identify a brush/commutator... I guess there are things that could help online with that but I'd rather not take the chance.

 

Interesting to know that this isn't necessarily an isolated problem, tho.

 

The one that runs worse (when it does run...) gets very hot so I'll leave it be until it has been checked over. I don't want something burning out/melting on me!

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

[Frutigen]

I’ve had similar problems with the Fleischmann Ae6/6, again sorted by cleaning out the commutator, but it’s not something I’d care to do frequently. If it happens again I’ll probably put a coreless motor in it. Discussion on a German language forum suggests that any replacement motor from Fleischmann is likely to have the same problem. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Frutigen

[Gordonwis]

There is much discussion in Germany about the poor build quality of current Fleischmann products. Luckily I've had no problems with my recent purchases.

 

However there is a general trend towards less well put together models - my most recent problem is with a brand new Kato Re6/6 which has a couple of less than well secured bits on the PCB

[Michanglais]

Both faulty locos have now been returned to the shop for servicing/replacement/whatever. 

 

I really want these locos so I'm hoping they give them a good service and clean the commutators, or whatever needs to be done. If they get sent back to Fleischmann, I can see it being a long process...

 

I want to buy two red Re460s when they're released at the end of the year. I can only hope I don't have the same issues...

[Michanglais]

12 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

There is much discussion in Germany about the poor build quality of current Fleischmann products. Luckily I've had no problems with my recent purchases.

 

However there is a general trend towards less well put together models - my most recent problem is with a brand new Kato Re6/6 which has a couple of less than well secured bits on the PCB

 

I've had a few problems with bogie frames being distorted on the black/white EWIVs with the yaw dampers. Trouble is, I can't remember where I bought them from so I'll have to take the chance and buy some spares hoping they're okay. Annoying.

 

[Michanglais]

I've discovered what may be a solution to poor-/non-running Fleischmann re 460/465s.

 

There's a manufacturer in the Netherlands who has just released a replacement, coreless motor for the offending class. There's a guy in France who is selling them at €25 a piece, plus he'll fit them for you (not sure how much that service costs but I don't think I'd have the technical skills to do it myself and you need a set of electronic measurement 'thingies' that would probably cost more than the installation).

 

It's not right that you should have to replace motors in new locos but the Fleischmann version is the only acceptable model of this class for me. Maybe I should send Fleischmann the conversion bill...

 

 

The guy has just got back to me. He only charges €20 to do the conversion, which is less than I imagined (I watched a YouTube vid on it last night and it seemed VERY fiddly). So now, I've discovered a database with all the Fleischmann releases on it and have gathered the production numbers. With picclick.com I can check all the ebays at once and see if I can pick up second hand models - wouldn't be quite so painful as replacing motors in new models.

 

Don't know if anyone has mentioned them before but the sites I've been using https://www.spur-n-datenbank.de/ and https://www.spurweite-n.de/ncontent/ndb/ndb-search.asp give tons of info on previous releases in N, along with estimated values and even an ebay.de search option. Actually, I'll put those in separate post. People might find them useful.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Michanglais
Update

[Michanglais]

On 11/09/2022 at 10:41, Gottardo said:

I have had similar problems with my Fleischmann Re460/465's and newer Re4/4's and soft motor brushes appear to be the main cause. 

I remove the brushes/springs and clean any carbon debris from the commutator using an aerosol electronic cleaner. This usually does the trick. I have never found it necessary to actually renew the brushes and after the initial cleaning they have tended to remain trouble free. It's as if the initial bedding in of the new brushes gets rid of the softer material and they then harden with use.

Some reports say that touching the end of the brushes with a hot soldering iron until they stop smoking hardens the brushes but I can't really confirm this. I think this is more likely to be required if the brushes have been contaminated by excess lubrication, a problem many Fleischmann locos suffer from when leaving the factory.

Removing the brushes and cleaning is straightforward once the body is removed although it will be more fiddly on your sound locos because of the extra wiring.

If you don't feel confident enough to do it yourself I would return the locos to a dealer. Attempting to run them in this condition could lead to overheating and in the case of the sound locos some expensive damage.

 

Just out of interest, would you know of a tutorial on YouTube in English (don't speak German...) on how to do this? My fleet has grown to six and it's going to get expensive (and annoying) replacing all these essentially brand new motors with coreless alternatives...

 

 

[Gottardo]

Does this procedure I use to clean my locos help you?

I have used it successfully for many years.

I use Servisol Aero Klene 50 as a cleaner. It is safe for electronics and doesn't leave a residue. If you don't want to use a cleaner a blast of dry air from something like a photographic lens blower would probably work.

Please ignore my previous comment about DCC locos being more fiddly due to the extra wiring. This only applies when you need to remove the motor.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Gottardo
photo text corrected

[Michanglais]

1 hour ago, Gottardo said:

Does this procedure I use to clean my locos help you?

I have used it successfully for many years.

I use Servisol Aero Klene 50 as a cleaner. It is safe for electronics and doesn't leave a residue. If you don't want to use a cleaner a blast of dry air from something like a photographic lens blower would probably work.

Please ignore my previous comment about DCC locos being more fiddly due to the extra wiring. This only applies when you need to remove the motor.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Wow John,

 

That is just brilliant! Exactly what I need to know what I'm doing.

 

Thanks so much for posting this!

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

[Michanglais]

On 08/10/2022 at 11:35, Gottardo said:

Does this procedure I use to clean my locos help you?

I have used it successfully for many years.

I use Servisol Aero Klene 50 as a cleaner. It is safe for electronics and doesn't leave a residue. If you don't want to use a cleaner a blast of dry air from something like a photographic lens blower would probably work.

Please ignore my previous comment about DCC locos being more fiddly due to the extra wiring. This only applies when you need to remove the motor.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Hi John,

 

I've tried to order the Servisol Aero Klene 50 in/from France - for some reason it is no longer available here, tho Servisol does exist. I've found a product that I think will do the job (fingers crossed - tho if it does ruin the motors I'll have to go back to plan A and get them replaced with coreless... much more expensive option!).

 

I was wondering whether you need to manually turn the motors while spraying or is the force of the jet strong enough to remove all the debris? As my locos are all relatively new, I'm hoping not to have to use the blunt cocktail stick method but in that you mention turning the motor, hence my question in the case of using the aerosol.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

[Gottardo]

Hi Michael.

WD-40 Fast Drying Contact Cleaner is a suitable alternative (NOT the well-known standard WD-40). You basically want an electrical cleaner that does not leave any residue.

A very short blast from each side is all that is required to clean out any carbon debris and you don't normally need to turn the motor.

If you do spray for too long and the motor gets soaked in cleaning fluid just leave the excess to evaporate before refitting the brushes and testing.

 

John

Edited October 21, 2022 by Gottardo
extra detail added

[Michanglais]

On 21/10/2022 at 09:57, Gottardo said:

Hi Michael.

WD-40 Fast Drying Contact Cleaner is a suitable alternative (NOT the well-known standard WD-40). You basically want an electrical cleaner that does not leave any residue.

A very short blast from each side is all that is required to clean out any carbon debris and you don't normally need to turn the motor.

If you do spray for too long and the motor gets soaked in cleaning fluid just leave the excess to evaporate before refitting the brushes and testing.

 

John

 

Thanks for that John. I've found a few different WD-40 products that seem very similar, they all say Fast Drying Contact Cleaner - Specialist. Some specify no residue, others safe for plastics. I don't suppose you would know the product reference for one you may use if you've got it to hand? 

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

[Gottardo]

Hi Michael. I can't find a reference number on the can but this is the one that I have used.

 

https://wd40.co.uk/product/fast-drying-contact-cleaner/

 

John

[Michanglais]

1 hour ago, Gottardo said:

Hi Michael. I can't find a reference number on the can but this is the one that I have used.

 

https://wd40.co.uk/product/fast-drying-contact-cleaner/

 

John

 

Thanks John for all your help with this! Let's hope it saves me a small fortune in new motors!

 

Have a good Sunday,

Michael

[Gottardo]

Morning Michael.

Think positive. I have used this method many times to get my Fleischmann locos running smoothly again.

As your locos are new I don't think there will be too much carbon build-up so one treatment should be enough but very occasionally I have had to repeat it after testing.

As removing the body can sometimes be the most awkward part of the procedure I suggest you test the loco before refitting the body and buffers just to be sure that the treatment has been successful.

John

[Michanglais]

On 23/10/2022 at 10:48, Gottardo said:

Morning Michael.

Think positive. I have used this method many times to get my Fleischmann locos running smoothly again.

As your locos are new I don't think there will be too much carbon build-up so one treatment should be enough but very occasionally I have had to repeat it after testing.

As removing the body can sometimes be the most awkward part of the procedure I suggest you test the loco before refitting the body and buffers just to be sure that the treatment has been successful.

John

 

Good tip, thanks John.

 

I shall report in as soon as I've received my cleaner to let you know how it's going!

 

Can't remember if I mentioned it but I found an ebay vendor in the UK willing to send the Servisol to France (I get the impression it was either unpopular or banned here - ooops if it was the latter). Other Servisol products are available so they do trade here. Anyway, the vendor posted the cleaner through the ebay international delivery service a couple of weeks back. The trail then went cold. I figured someone had spotted that it was a dangerous product to post internationally and had returned it to the vendor. I was just about to contact him when I got a message saying it was being processed for delivery at the ebay facility and I would receive further notificiations. I'm going to wait a bit to see if it actually does arrive, if not I'll go for the WD-40 alternative you suggested. 

 

As it stands, I've got one surviving re460 that is showing no signs of trouble yet so it's being put into many and varied services... I've only got one running line, anyway, so the rest are sat in sidings awaiting their 'next turn of duty'.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

 

[Michanglais]

On 23/10/2022 at 10:48, Gottardo said:

Morning Michael.

Think positive. I have used this method many times to get my Fleischmann locos running smoothly again.

As your locos are new I don't think there will be too much carbon build-up so one treatment should be enough but very occasionally I have had to repeat it after testing.

As removing the body can sometimes be the most awkward part of the procedure I suggest you test the loco before refitting the body and buffers just to be sure that the treatment has been successful.

John

 

Hi John,

 

Well, to my great surprise the contact cleaner cleared customs and was delivered yesterday. I didn't have decent enough lighting to try last night but this afternoon I've had a go. I picked my least favourite loco - it sort of ran, very jerkily, then stopped, started a bit more if pushed then stopped again.

 

So, I set to work. I followed your instructions to the T. A blast in each hole, wait to dry, clean the brush head, re-assemble then test. However, upon applying power, the lights came on but the motor was completely dead. Not even any jerky movement upon pushing. I even tried turning it manually, just to see if it needed to be 'got going' but nothing.

 

Not being sure of how these things are wired up and put together, I placed the unit on the track without the brushes in and this time no lights, so something is making contact somewhere. Strangely enough, the lighting was 'steadier' - no flickering or cutting out.

 

I tried three times - each time with the same result. 

 

Any ideas? I noticed that the little caps have a hole on one side - does that have to be to the left or right, or something? I'm not needing to apply a lot of force when re-inserting them, tho. 

 

I'll maybe try on another loco later, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

[Gottardo]

Hi Michael,

It's possible that one (or even both) of the brush holders are not making a good electrical contact with the contact strips on the circuit board. See the photo.

When you insert the brush holders there is a tendency for the tab to ride over the circuit board contact strips and trap them (as in the first photo). This isn't really a problem and still gives a good electrical contact but really the circuit board contact strips should be pressing on the outside of the brush holder tabs (as in the second photo) although this does require a bit of careful manipulation to get the contact strips in the correct position.

I wouldn't worry about this technicality at the moment as the main priority is to ensure you have good electrical contacts and you can prove that your cleaning procedure has been successful.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Gottardo
extra detail added

[Michanglais]

12 hours ago, Gottardo said:

Hi Michael,

It's possible that one (or even both) of the brush holders are not making a good electrical contact with the contact strips on the circuit board. See the photo.

When you insert the brush holders there is a tendency for the tab to ride over the circuit board contact strips and trap them (as in the first photo). This isn't really a problem and still gives a good electrical contact but really the circuit board contact strips should be pressing on the outside of the brush holder tabs (as in the second photo) although this does require a bit of careful manipulation to get the contact strips in the correct position.

I wouldn't worry about this technicality at the moment as the main priority is to ensure you have good electrical contacts and you can prove that your cleaning procedure has been successful.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply and pictures, John. Upon close inspection (god it's hard to see - even with a magnifying glass!) I'm definitely in the photo one position so I'll try to get to photo two. 

 

I've got seven locos to do in total and if this is a process that has to be repeated I may just give up and get them re-motorised with coreless motors. There's a guy who does it relatively cheaply and I guess it would increase the re-sale value (I do tend to like to change my fleet once in a while).

 

But, I'm not giving up yet!

 

Have a good Friday and, once again, many thanks for all your help!

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

 

[Michanglais]

20 hours ago, Gottardo said:

Hi Michael,

It's possible that one (or even both) of the brush holders are not making a good electrical contact with the contact strips on the circuit board. See the photo.

When you insert the brush holders there is a tendency for the tab to ride over the circuit board contact strips and trap them (as in the first photo). This isn't really a problem and still gives a good electrical contact but really the circuit board contact strips should be pressing on the outside of the brush holder tabs (as in the second photo) although this does require a bit of careful manipulation to get the contact strips in the correct position.

I wouldn't worry about this technicality at the moment as the main priority is to ensure you have good electrical contacts and you can prove that your cleaning procedure has been successful.

 

 

 

I tried. I really did. But it just wasn't happening... I don't know how you manage it! I just couldn't see what I was doing and the 'cap' was getting a bit squashed in the end, let alone one of the springs getting caught.

 

First two locos are going off for fitting with coreless motors tomorrow!

 

Anyway, despite my not being successful in the end - thank you very much for all your help and patience with this issue.

 

Have a good weekend!

Michael

 

[Gottardo]

I don't know what to say Michael. The fact that you are starting to damage things is probably an indication that N Gauge loco servicing is not your cup of tea but at least you tried. 

Take care.

John.

[Michanglais]

On 28/10/2022 at 21:40, Gottardo said:

I don't know what to say Michael. The fact that you are starting to damage things is probably an indication that N Gauge loco servicing is not your cup of tea but at least you tried. 

Take care.

John.

 

Hi John,

 

Having had success bringing a dead Fleischmann BB22200 fully back to life, I'm thinking about having another go with an re460. 

 

I just wanted to confirm something - both electrical contact strips are currently in the 'incorrect' position as per your first photo above - but when I put the loco on the tracks, the lights do work when power is applied, the loco simply doesn't move.

 

Does that mean that the 'contact' should be sufficient for the motor to run or do the contact strips absolutely have to be in the 'correct' position as per your second pic for movement?

 

Could it be that the motor really has given out (despite fairly little use)? Given that, unless I can solve the problem myself, I'm intending on getting my entire fleet re-motored, I'm wondering whether it's worth having a go with a different, ailing loco to see if I get the same result (even without the contact strips being in the 'correct' position). 

 

Whilst the re-motoring isn't toooo expensive, the guy is very busy and it's a matter of months (still waiting to get my first pair back). Also, I like the idea of being able to service my fleet by my own means.

 

Anyway, your opinion would be greatly appreciated.

 

Have a good Sunday!

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

Later in the afternoon...

 

... Success! I recently bought some LED magnifying spectacles and was able to get the contacts in the correct position fairly easily. Feeling very pleased with myself! :) 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Michanglais
I did it!

[Gottardo]

Hi Michael,

The magnifying specs are a great help. I use them myself for some jobs.

With the help of the specs and some decent lighting I'm sure that you will be able to service the motors. Do you feel confident enough to remove the motor completely to check that it's working by applying a separate power supply to the brush holders? This will rule out any problems with the electronics.

 

John