EWIs, EWIIs, RICs in push-pull sets?

[Michanglais]

Maybe a daft question but were these vehicles ever fitted for push-pull working?

 

If so, what would they have been powered by and what cab cars would have been used with them?

 

I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable on the matter but I seem to have a vague memory of the small yellow and/or blue diamonds painted on the coach ends meaning they could be used in this way (very happy for someone to enlighten me!) and have an even vaguer memory of seeing some of these coaches featuring these 'diamonds'...

 

Naturally, my next question is would they have ever been mixed in with EWIVs/hauled by re460s?

 

Cheers,

Michael

 

[Frutigen]

The photos I posted in another thread show EW I and EW II in a push-pull formation. The grey and blue coach (NPZ livery) in the first photo is the driving car. The loco was Re420. This was an IR on the Basel - Bözberg - Zürich route. 
 

There were also local trains, all in NPZ colours, all over the system, again powered by Re420. 
 

In earlier times, green EW I and EW II would appear on longer distance trains with a baggage-only control coach, similar to the Eriam n gauge model, at one end and an Re420 at the other. 
 

In push-pull operation I don’t think they were ever powered by Re460 or mixed with EW IV or RIC coaches. 

[Gordonwis]

RE Geneve - Lausanne, front and back at Nyon, 2008

[chb2488]

Hello Michael

 

I‘ll try to have a stab at answering the question. EW 1, EW 2 and several batches of Leichtstahl coaches ran in push-pull sets with RBe 4/4 and Re 4/4 ‘‘, and their driving trailers (EW 1 and EW 2 BDt, DZt and Dt), BDe 4/4 and first series Re 4/4 ‘ and their respective driving trailers, as well as De 4/4 and Be 4/6 motor coaches. There were yellow triangles to designate these push-pull coaches, and red triangles for any that had special brake shoes. Two notable exceptions are the EW 1 with Übersetzfenster and the EW 2 D, which both are not equipped for push-pull services.

 

These coaches didn’t run within push-pull sets with EW IV etc., however the departmental RailCom EW IV can often be found between a Re 420 and a BDt. The RIC coaches Bpm 21-73 are not cleared for push-pull service.

 

Best regards

 

Christian

 

 

[Michanglais]

Thanks to all for the contributions!

 

Maybe you've guessed by now that I'm obsessed with re460s and re 465s! Hence all the questions about what they haul(ed) and how. I shall keep my EWI, EWII and RIC haulage to non push-pull workings, then.

 

Have a good weekend everyone!

Michael

[Gordonwis]

16 hours ago, Michanglais said:

Thanks to all for the contributions!

 

Maybe you've guessed by now that I'm obsessed with re460s and re 465s! Hence all the questions about what they haul(ed) and how. I shall keep my EWI, EWII and RIC haulage to non push-pull workings, then.

 

Have a good weekend everyone!

Michael

 

Oh dear, you should be at Yverdon works open day this weekend then, for the roll out of the last Re460 'refit'

[MOB 2002]

On 01/10/2022 at 06:19, chb2488 said:

The EW 1, EW 2 and several batches of Leichtstahl coaches ran in push-pull sets with RBe 4/4 and Re 4/4 ‘‘, and their driving trailers (EW 1 and EW 2 BDt, DZt and Dt), BDe 4/4 and first series Re 4/4 ‘ and their respective driving trailers, as well as De 4/4 and Be 4/6 motor coaches. There were yellow triangles to designate these push-pull coaches, and red triangles for any that had special brake shoes. Two notable exceptions are the EW 1 with Übersetzfenster and the EW 2 D, which both are not equipped for push-pull services.

Just to complicate things even further, the De4/4 and Be4/6 worked with an earlier series of driving trailers, the BTi and BDTi vehicles.

So, the De4/4 and Be4/6 could not push pull with Leichtstahlwagen and EW I or EW II driving trailers, but the standard carriages of those types could work in a train powered by a De4/4 or Be4/6 and driven from a BTi or BDTi.

 

Here’s an example, https://igschieneschweiz.startbilder.de/bild/schweiz~strecken~652-beinwil-am-see-beromuenster/694089/der-schiebende-sbb-de-44-1667.html

 

Of course, most of this won’t be a problem for 99% of Swiss modellers, just weirdos who model obscure lines like the Seetalbahn. For those weirdos like me, getting hold of the right driving trailer is a bit of a nightmare!

 

Mark

[icn]

On 30/09/2022 at 17:38, Michanglais said:

Naturally, my next question is would they have ever been mixed in with EWIVs/hauled by re460s?

The control systems are all wrong I think - RE460 with EW IV or IC2000 uses UIC18+EP cables, whereas RE420 or NPZ with EW I/II use one of the variants of VST. Mix and match likely wouldn't be possible without adding some cables: the EW IV/IC2000 are missing VST, the EW I/II meanwhile only have UIC 13 and no EP (they could at least be dragged by any locomotive). The upgraded RIC's have gained UIC 18 and EP but there's likely no reason to try shoving them?

 

Although... that's actually only partly true: I've seen an IC2000 consist being pushed by an RE460, with RIC carriages hanging off the back. I've never seen it myself, but I can't see any reason not to do the same with EW I/II. The key part is these specific carriages are not being shoved.

 

But that then makes me wonder: can the Panorama carriages be pushed? These were upgraded to UIC18 and EP like the RIC's (but fairly late I believe), but I've seen some forum posts claiming they're too weak due to the windows which seems plausible but hard to verify - and similarly it's probably not worth the investment to test and certify them.

Edited October 8, 2022 by icn

[Michanglais]

46 minutes ago, icn said:

The control systems are all wrong I think - RE460 with EW IV or IC2000 uses UIC18+EP cables, whereas RE420 or NPZ with EW I/II use one of the variants of VST. Mix and match likely wouldn't be possible without adding some cables: the EW IV/IC2000 are missing VST, the EW I/II meanwhile only have UIC 13 and no EP (they could at least be dragged by any locomotive). The upgraded RIC's have gained UIC 18 and EP but there's likely no reason to try shoving them?

 

Although... that's actually only partly true: I've seen an IC2000 consist being pushed by an RE460, with RIC carriages hanging off the back. I've never seen it myself, but I can't see any reason not to do the same with EW I/II. The key part is these specific carriages are not being shoved.

 

But that then makes me wonder: can the Panorama carriages be pushed? These were upgraded to UIC18 and EP like the RIC's (but fairly late I believe), but I've seen some forum posts claiming they're too weak due to the windows which seems plausible but hard to verify - and similarly it's probably not worth the investment to test and certify them.

 

That's very interesting. Thanks.

 

Would be interesting to replicate the IC2000 consist being pushed with a couple of RICs trailing...

 

I was wondering the same thing about the Panorama coaches, too. 

[Gordonwis]

11 hours ago, icn said:

 

Although... that's actually only partly true: I've seen an IC2000 consist being pushed by an RE460, with RIC carriages hanging off the back. I've never seen it myself, but I can't see any reason not to do the same with EW I/II. The key part is these specific carriages are not being shoved.

 

 

 

Something like this you mean...😁

My photo: Killwangen-Spreitenbach July 2013