RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted January 26, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26, 2023 The only thing to be careful with as far as couplings are concerned is that where you are using close couplings, such as the Tillig type (and Fleischmann Profi for that matter) is that the coupling boxes have to have a kinematic arrangement or otherwise going round curves will lead to derailments as the couplings lock rigidly together. This isn't necessary with the standard narrow gauge or N gauge couplings. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 3 hours ago, natterjack said: Now all we need is a 1/120 Blue Pullman kit. Is that the Midland version, the Western version or the Midland transferred to the Western version? 👼 Luke 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 Or the hst in blue pullman livery!! :) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 2 hours ago, luke_stevens said: Is that the Midland version, the Western version or the Midland transferred to the Western version? 22 minutes ago, Hobby said: Or the hst in blue pullman livery!! :) To be serious for a mo, it was a oblique reference to the excellent Cambridge Custom transfers which I'm using for an O Gauge build of the Midland Blue Pullman). I'd like to think they'd be unnecessary when Bachmann surprises us all, 'though let's not forget Hornby also has skin in that particular game via Triang. Back(ish) to the topic in hand...... Looking at the idea of motoring the Lionel PRR-1 does anybody have an HO or O version to hand that can give me some ideas on where to pivot the articulations on what is effectively a back to back pair of 4-6-0 s? I plan to use a pair of BTTB 3 axle bogies as the basis for the final drive as they happen to be very close to the Lionel rendition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-Pete Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 11 hours ago, natterjack said: Back(ish) to the topic in hand...... Looking at the idea of motoring the Lionel PRR-1 does anybody have an HO or O version to hand that can give me some ideas on where to pivot the articulations on what is effectively a back to back pair of 4-6-0 s? I plan to use a pair of BTTB 3 axle bogies as the basis for the final drive as they happen to be very close to the Lionel rendition. I've got one of those! There was a group of TT modellers in Germany in around 2010 who had a cottage industry going for a while motorising the Lionel TT 1:120 "push along" diecast models using standard Tillig components, they did the GP9 and the GG1, I bought the GG1 as I have a soft spot for them, cost me 149 euros as I recall. When I get a mo' I'll take it apart and post a few photos of the mechanism next week. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 15 minutes ago, TT-Pete said: When I get a mo' I'll take it apart and post a few photos of the mechanism next week. Yes please! I've found photo backed info on the GP conversions but not the GG-1. I think there will also be some UK outline loco drives where 'swing' becomes an issue that might benefit from this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britishcolumbian Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share Posted January 27, 2023 Conversions for the Lionel GP9 and F3 have been around for a long time, the German one from Lok n Roll was an improvement (? (!)) over the first one made by Possum Valley Models close to 20 years ago now. I had one of the latter, a local friend had some of the former but the ones for the GP were somewhat troublesome; I think they've been redesigned since then, though. Funny story about those Lionel models, they were originally intended to be 1:160, but ended up 1:120, and the person who made that mistake (?) was apparently fired over it... mistake it may have been but it was a big boost to NorAm TT scale for a while there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 Looking and sounding good! 1) Body shell is now just about level 2) And I thought it was me that couldn't get the body to fit evenly. Seems it is held off side by it's internal shape. 3) Without it's body but with tidied wiring. The running blue+ grey are for a capacitor, using the Youchoos Lifelink and caps but I'll want to do more running first :) Next week I'll spend some time working on the fuel tank detailing. The fuel tank was just tacked in pace for this test and needs to be better sealed as the sound is good but the horns are a little lacking. In the longer term I may do another body of two for this chassis as I don't really want to build another for a bit. I've also realised that 1) a Western is going to be a pain with it's narrow fuel tank and 2) an electric is going to struggle with head room. Maybe in their case the decoder would go between the bogies and the speaker(s) next to the flywheels? Luke 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 51 minutes ago, luke_stevens said: In the longer term I may do another body of two for this chassis as I don't really want to build another for a bit. I've also realised that 1) a Western is going to be a pain with it's narrow fuel tank and 2) an electric is going to struggle with head room. Maybe in their case the decoder would go between the bogies and the speaker(s) next to the flywheels? I have nothing but admiration in this endeavour which has to a certain extent illustrated the TT3 vs TT120 debate over UK profile volume for mechanisms. For kits at this stage of the game, I still think 3D printed sides is less preferable to photo etched simply because of space. Its is a matter of gaining an extra few mm of room; that is until we get the slimmed down Hornby mechanisms to play with. This comment is aimed towards any kit manufacturers out there. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britishcolumbian Posted January 28, 2023 Author Share Posted January 28, 2023 4 hours ago, natterjack said: I have nothing but admiration in this endeavour which has to a certain extent illustrated the TT3 vs TT120 debate over UK profile volume for mechanisms. Although I'd been aware of it in theory for basically ever, getting involved with British outline modelling has really driven home to me just how much smaller British equipment is compared to Continental and North American prototypes. Incidentally it's also made me realise why I've always had this impression that British railways are broad gauge - Continental and especially NorAm loading gauges are so much bigger on the same track gauge that it produces that broad gauge impression. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 Luke, are you intending to replace the bogie sides? They just look a little too large to my eyes. I did a conversion of a Liliput 2095 chassis into one for a Tu2 a while ago, also having to do a fair bit of filing to that chassis. the last job was to file down the bogie side frames and layer on new ones, I've a feeling that would be beneficial in this case, though a fair bit extra work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 8 hours ago, britishcolumbian said: Although I'd been aware of it in theory for basically ever, getting involved with British outline modelling has really driven home to me just how much smaller British equipment is compared to Continental and North American prototypes. Incidentally it's also made me realise why I've always had this impression that British railways are broad gauge - Continental and especially NorAm loading gauges are so much bigger on the same track gauge that it produces that broad gauge impression. In terms of size the only reason I changed the motor is that it was too long for the Class 33. The width and height wouldn't have been a problem. My chassis made of plasticard is "larger" that it would have been if it was cast metal. Many years ago there was an American firm "Aztec" that made replacement cast metal frames for N gauge locos where you could take the parts from a inaccurate model and drop then into the new casting to make a model with an accurate chassis. This would be easy to do for the 33, if I had a large pressure casting machine :) Luke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 6 hours ago, Hobby said: Luke, are you intending to replace the bogie sides? They just look a little too large to my eyes. I did a conversion of a Liliput 2095 chassis into one for a Tu2 a while ago, also having to do a fair bit of filing to that chassis. the last job was to file down the bogie side frames and layer on new ones, I've a feeling that would be beneficial in this case, though a fair bit extra work! My thoughts on this is that if I could make a bogie frame looking as as good then I would. But at this stage I'm just happy to have a chassis that works :) I may try and scratch build something at some point (or see if I can deign something that can be 3d printed). Oddly I have a Shapeways Tu2 body which I stopped work on what I realised there weren't chassis frames available. But as RTmodels now offer a Tu2 kit I am tempted to try again as this kit looks better than the Shapeways Tu2 body. Diesel locomotive TU2 http://rtmodels.com.ua/product/tu2/ Luke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 15 hours ago, natterjack said: I have nothing but admiration in this endeavour which has to a certain extent illustrated the TT3 vs TT120 debate over UK profile volume for mechanisms. For kits at this stage of the game, I still think 3D printed sides is less preferable to photo etched simply because of space. Its is a matter of gaining an extra few mm of room; that is until we get the slimmed down Hornby mechanisms to play with. This comment is aimed towards any kit manufacturers out there. That reminds me of the old MTK kits that usually had cast ends and etched brass (or stamped aluminium) sides :) If the bodyshell was resin cast in flat pieces they could be thinner. On the other hand if the chassis and body were produced by the same company the part thicknesses could be optimised. Luke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 In TT120 I'd have thought 8thou metal could be used, even for half etch. The system I would adopt for most diesel/ electrics would be 3D printed ends linked by a minimal and potentially sacrificial frame and printed cosmetic bogie side frames. Sides, roof, the basic bogies plus window frames and doors etc as etch (ie pretty well all flat, folded and plain curve bits). Pushing this a little further, fully finished printed parts could be cast for small scale (ie one casting per day per mould) production in epoxy without fear of the dreaded resin shrink. This would obviate the users issues with getting a decent finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 2 hours ago, natterjack said: In TT120 I'd have thought 8thou metal could be used, even for half etch. The system I would adopt for most diesel/ electrics would be 3D printed ends linked by a minimal and potentially sacrificial frame and printed cosmetic bogie side frames. Sides, roof, the basic bogies plus window frames and doors etc as etch (ie pretty well all flat, folded and plain curve bits). Pushing this a little further, fully finished printed parts could be cast for small scale (ie one casting per day per mould) production in epoxy without fear of the dreaded resin shrink. This would obviate the users issues with getting a decent finish. I think we have more space to play with. On my 33 I've used 1.5mm chassis parts made of plastic. If they were etched or cast one could easily get it down to 0.5mm From the outside of the 33 shell to the motor is around 4mm so there is lots of space to play with if being careful with material choice. Most British wagons / coaching stock are fundamentally flat planes or planes with a curve in one direction. Most diesel have compound curves in at least 2 directions. Apart from the 59/66 and 70 the can't really be made from flat plates. The nose on the Deltic, the nose and cab on a Western, the roof of a Hymek or the cab of a 26/27/33 all have curves in multiple directions and would have to be cast / printed. Hight quality 3d resin printing has no striation lines. Whilst there was work to do on the 33 it wasn't to do with this. An etched fold-up or pressure cast metal chassis with a printed resin body would easily be of a sufficiently high quality. Luke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 57 minutes ago, luke_stevens said: all have curves in multiple directions and would have to be cast / printed As it happens, in O Gauge I make my nose masters from contour layered MDF which you can regard as thick layered printing- examples would include the Midland Pullman which in its full size form had surprisingly few compound curves. It is only when we come to full size practice of composite construction that compound curves really became the rule and that would pretty well coincide with the introduction of the APT and HST designs. I do wonder how much of this was due to design cross-over from the ex aerospace employees of British Rail. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-Pete Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 On 27/01/2023 at 09:40, natterjack said: Yes please! I've found photo backed info on the GP conversions but not the GG-1. I think there will also be some UK outline loco drives where 'swing' becomes an issue that might benefit from this. Are we sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin. In the late 1990's Lionel launched a range of diecast push-along 1:120 scale locomotives (a total of 6 I believe) under the "Big Rugged" brand. Why? Who knows, but I don't think they ever got beyond "Series 1" I mean, what else would you do with them other than pushing them around, or having them sitting in a display case? No rolling stock, just the locos (and people think Hornby are crazy). In the early 2000's they could be picked up a dime a dozen on Ebay and there was a flurry of them until suddenly, they disappeared. A USA TT modeller community in Germany bought a load of the GP9 and GG1 models and up to about 2010 were converting them using standard Tillig components. This is one of them: First a view underneath: The power bogies are Tillig Co-Co inserted into the original Lionel frames. A screw at either end releases the body to reveal that it is powered with two motors. (The block in the centre is a lump of metal - this loco is heavy. This picture also shows that the loco can easily get around really vicious curves. The central gearbox on each bogie pokes through a hole in the chassis (I assume this was drilled out) and they are held in place with the usual clip A close-up gives a better view: So it would appear that the original Lionel frames made of a nylon type plastic have had the centres cut out so that the Tillig bogies slot inside them but I can't work out how they are held in place. The leading bogie has a metal plate that pivots off a screw in the leading end of the bogie frame (circled in yellow below). You can see cut marks in the bogie so it has obviously been adapted to get the wheelsets in place, but I've no idea how. So overall not a bad little model, runs smoothly and goes like stink. Ok so the bogie wheelbase doesn't quite match the frame axlebox spacings and those moulded pantographs are awful (anyone have any bright ideas for replacing them with something more prototypical?) but then where else are you going to get a GG1 in TT 1:120? (Oh and ideally it could have done with flywheels being fitted and I would have preferred the Tuscan red livery version, but beggars can't be choosers...) It really dwarfs the poor little Hymek... (And I really must get around to building the motorisation kit I got for the Pennsy F3 from Possum Valley Models nearly 20 years ago and haven't started yet.) 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 (edited) That's brilliant Pete! It seems this conversion was offered as a kit via https://www.lok-n-roll.de, but that site has been down for maintenance for some while- maybe someone can offer some insight on this? Can anybody provide the part number for the Tillig co-co bogies? Regarding the pantographs it looks like some of the German guys converting the GG-1 have used those found at the bottom of this page http://hekttor.biz/index.php?lng=ENG&m=2&act=katt&kat=1 but they appear to be out of stock. The BTTB ones I've looked at are altogether the wrong shape and I'm wondering if anything suitable can be found in the tram (street car) circles or perhaps even narrowed HO/OO examples? BTW I have a rail over roof measurement of 14' 5 19/32" (!) for the GG-1 and that doesn't include the sticky up bits of the pantographs (15' overall in the lowered position)- just a little taller than a Hymek. Added note "So it would appear that the original Lionel frames made of a nylon type plastic" The bogie plastic on my example is actually some form of styrene and has been easily cut and shut and welded to plasticard with the usual glues and solvents. Edited April 25, 2023 by natterjack Additional info on Lionel plastic material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britishcolumbian Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 The Lionel TT range was a mistake. They were supposed to be 1:160; the guy who made them 1:120 apparently lost his job over it. TT scale pantographs: Sommerfeldt: https://www.sommerfeldt.de/de/stromabnehmer/spurweite-tt-43/ Piko: https://www.piko-shop.de/de/warengruppe/lok-und-wagenzubehoer-47.html Tillig: https://www.elriwa.de/Produkte/Ersatzteile/Stromabnehmer/Spur-TT/Tillig/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TT-Pete Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 I found this thread on TT Nut dating from 2010: https://www.ttnut.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=793 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 14 hours ago, britishcolumbian said: TT scale pantographs: Those scissor types are pretty well the same size as BTTB being roughly square in depressed plan while those of the GG-1 would be roughly a 2 to 1 longitudinal rectangle, hence my thoughts on narrowing something from a larger scale (heavens know what the OH wire height was on the PRR !) 10 hours ago, TT-Pete said: I found this thread on TT Nut dating from 2010: Courtesy Google Translate, I'd already signed up to this site- some very useful insights, assuming the translations are reasonably accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britishcolumbian Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 5 hours ago, natterjack said: Those scissor types are pretty well the same size as BTTB being roughly square in depressed plan while those of the GG-1 would be roughly a 2 to 1 longitudinal rectangle, hence my thoughts on narrowing something from a larger scale (heavens know what the OH wire height was on the PRR !) Courtesy Google Translate, I'd already signed up to this site- some very useful insights, assuming the translations are reasonably accurate. Google translate? TT Nut is in English... are you maybe mixing it up with the German TT-Board? No idea about wire height on the Pennsy, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natterjack Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said: are you maybe mixing it up with the German TT-Board? Mea Culpa For info a link to the German TT thread on the GG-1 conversion is ; https://www.tt-board.de/forum/threads/lionel-pennsylvania-gg1-motorisieren.43804/ Mind, I do sometimes use Google Translate for North American English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britishcolumbian Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 1 minute ago, natterjack said: Mind, I do sometimes use Google Translate for North American English. You shouldn't need it for Canadian, ours is a lot closer to yours than to American. I mean they use "to table a bill" to mean the complete opposite of what it means throughout the Commonwealth/rest of the Anglophone world... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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