Pullman Revival: Welcome back.

[AVS1998]

Good evening everyone, 

 

As some of you will doubtless have seen, my account was temporarily suspended (I'd posted a status update and the wording in it was a little fishy), and as a result, all of my previous threads have been ousted. I'm going to start afresh, with a new Blackstone workbench and this Pullman (and associated luxury vehicle) post, serving (hopefully) as a place of discussion and a more dedicated archive to my findings. 

 

 It's good to be back, and I look forward to sharing future findings with you. 

 

Alex

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, AVS1998 said:

Good evening everyone, 

 

As some of you will doubtless have seen, my account was temporarily suspended (I'd posted a status update and the wording in it was a little fishy), and as a result, all of my previous threads have been ousted. I'm going to start afresh, with a new Blackstone workbench and this Pullman (and associated luxury vehicle) post, serving (hopefully) as a place of discussion and a more dedicated archive to my findings. 

 

 It's good to be back, and I look forward to sharing future findings with you. 

 

Alex

 

Did you announce a mini-budget and cause the site to crash?

 

Welcome back. 

[AVS1998]

Addressing a few projects: 

 

Rosalind looks salvageable. The chassis wasn't as bad as I imagined, and so the trussing has been reglued (it's always been a weak point on Hornby's Pullmans), and I'm thinking I'm going to cut off the buffer beams and replace them with Keen products, just to make them look tidier. They look very straggly at present. The chassis has also bowed slightly - I think by fitting brass strip in the vestibules with a nut on them, I can fix the body to the chassis through the Kadee boxes. New footsteps have been needed for a while, but my old-fashioned brass ladder trick seems to work just fine. Drill into the chassis and glue them in place. As for the body, it's going to have its (third?) repaint, stripped down and done from scratch. The transfer job I tried wasn't very tidy, and the varnish bloomed and matted poorly. New vestibules are easy to fit, too. I'm unsure if I'll populate the car. 

 

The SECR parlours (8-wheel) will need Dublo/Wrenn donors. They'll be bought over time. I was working on some but again, they look a bit scrappy and I'm not convinced I can rescue them effectively. We'll wait and see. 

 

Roundhouse LBSCR clerestories (unnamed yet, but likely to be Majestic and Princess Patricia) are going well. I've sanded the first car down and its body is currently curing together. It'll see filler and a blow-over with primer before I look at handling the vestibule windows and how to seal with the sides. I've got half an idea of what to do there. 

 

GER/LNER brakes 94 and 95 are going okay. The paintwork needs a tweak, then it's onto transfers, a little more detailing, and hopefully I can send those off to their owner in time. They've taken a lot longer than I'd have liked, but the commissioner doesn't seem too fussed and has said they've enjoyed watching the progress. 

 

SER/SECR car - this car I'm unsure I'll actually run in service. It was a fun little exercise, but I'd rather have something more representative and realistic in due course. All in good time, naturally. 

[AVS1998]

A wee update from my Pullman works and readings.  

 

On the LNER car front, I'm happy to announce that the cars will be with their commissioner by January. Given the poor state of some of my transfers, and the time it's taken to get the models this far, we've agreed that I should get the paint in a decently finished condition, make sure everything is fixed in place, and then send them on - the owner will do the lining and lettering themselves in time. I'm content with this agreement. 

 

The LBSCR clerestory is proving troublesome - the join is rather fragile, and it seems the car body had sagged when the solvent set, so I cut the halves apart again and sanded them a little more flush, only now the body is too short for the underframe. I have some wiggle room left to lose in the underframe anyway, so I'll see if trimming it some more doesn't help. In the meantime, I can glue reinforcements on the inside of the car - the sides will be cut away eventually anyway (terrifying prospect) for replacements to the British pattern. 

 

Re-reading Ford's Volume One on the twelve-wheel cars, Third Class Parlours 5-8 were built in 1917 and were deployed on Brighton and Eastbourne workings. From 1915, third class cars had been running on similar workings, and to West Sussex towns, and it is noted in newspapers such as the Bexhill-On-Sea Observer (18th September 1915) that ''it is hoped to introduce similar cars into other services as soon as possible'', suggesting that third class cars may have emerged on the Bexhill Special Express, which you may remember appears to not have been fully axed in 1907 as previously imagined. This is further reinforced with a snippet from the Bexhill-On-Sea Chronicle (same date), stating that ''so far no third-class Pullman cars on the L.B. and S.C. Railway have reached Bexhill, but it is probable that the Commercial Association will join with Hastings in asking the company to place Bexhill and Hastings on the same footing as Brighton.''

 

This demand seems to have been in effect from a year prior (square brackets mine); 

 

''He [Mr Reed-Lewis] hoped that at some future day, and not that very far distant, they [various bodies from Bexhill and Hastings including the Advertising Association and Commercial Association] would be able to bring pressure on the Brighton Railway to give Bexhill a parlour-car [note the British spelling now] service and, at times, respectable carriages. At the present day, the carriages which came to Bexhill and Hastings were very different to those which went to Brighton and Eastbourne.'' (Commercial Association Meeting, Bexhill-On-Sea Observer, 5th February 1916)

 

 The record of this meeting continues with reference to comments from LB&SCR stationmaster,  J. Holden (bold for emphasis):

 

''On all railways the towns that had the least traffic had to put up with the worst carriages. If there were sufficient passengers, the Railway Company would provide better facilities for Bexhill. They ran for some time a breakfast car, but often there was only one person in it. He thought it ran for two years.''

 

Suffice to say, there's a lot of ambiguity about this service, especially as to its receipt (or not) of third-class cars, but I'm happy enough to fudge it for my own purposes. 

 

Moving to something completely different, I re-read Jim Greaves' article on the Kentish dalliance with CIWL cars in the late 1800s, and was curious as to how the cars scaled out, according to measurements and floorplans he was able to find. 

 

I believe I'm correct in saying both parlour layouts would have had 17 windows. There was little to no catering, probably only warm beverages. The parlours were 57' 4'' long and 9' wide, with a bogie wheelbase of 8' 2'' (8' for ease of modelling possibly?). I'm unsure of height, but likely under 12' 9''? 

 

They ran in olive with gold lining, though this contradicts a works photo in another livery (easy to repaint before shipment though I suppose). I did toy with an alternative history as opposed to their being returned to the Continent after withdrawal in 1893; 

 

‘’Despite the evident failings of both the SER and LCDR’s dalliance with Wagons Lits, the cars allotted to the two companies remained in England for several years in storage at Mottingham, near Bromley, and, upon the arrangement of the new joint management committee through 1898, a new agreement was formed with CIWL for operation of the cars under the new company. 

 

The cars were now intended to be employed on ocean liner traffic to Blackstone, and later Dover, operating to passenger demand, with all cars constituting a complete train if required. They were stripped of their olive livery and instead varnished, with the gold lettering restored. Roofs were white. The fourgons were reclassified from smoking saloons to gentlemen’s lounges, and a pair ran consistently with each outing; the third was kept in reserve. As the Register of the Dover Harbour Board noted in 1905, Dover provided considerable benefits as a transatlantic port, with its position on the South Coast being ''absolutely unique [... ] In the voyage from Germany or Antwerp to New York 120 miles on each voyage as compared with a call at Southampton.'' (Dover Express, 11th August 1905)

 

By 1910, the SECR was running three forms of luxury carriage; Wagons Lits, Pullman, and their own Club Car (previously Hastings and Folkestone sets). These were easily distinguished from one another; Pullmans and the Wagons Lits cars ran on boat services until 1920, with the SECR’s own cars being used on domestic trains: these were bought and refurbished by Pullman post-War. By 1915, all cars had been suspended from service and were stored along with the SECR cars, being moved around the network, until 1919. The CIWL cars were lightly refurbished at Ashford, and re-varnished, re-entering service in June of that year. Consideration was given to the cars' life expectancy: the SECR were unsure of their willingness to renew the contract, given the 25-year period expired in 1923 and the War had ravaged cross-channel trade.

 

In January of 1923, all the CIWL cars were withdrawn once more and stored at Hither Green, awaiting a decision as to their continued use. They were, by then, over forty years old, and approaching life expiration. The similarly-aged ex-Gilbert Hastings cars were seeing out their final years as Pullmans on the Hastings route, but, with the anticipated influx of modern Pullmans taking over their roles on the boat train traffic, both sets of cars were, at last, redundant.  The Southern Railway and Wagons Lits entered discussions as to the viability of supplying suitably scaled steel cars as replacements. As transatlantic traffic largely fell away from the Kent Coast, the cost-effectiveness of providing a small fleet of dedicated WL cars was unjustifiable. In 1925, a prototype sleeper and restaurant car, built in Birmingham, were trialled in Europe and on intercompany services within Britain, but were stored at Stewarts Lane. No Wagons Lits car would again run in England until the Night Ferry, commencing in 1936.’’

 

Just a bit of fun, naturally. 

[Dana Ashdown]

This is one for our resident Pullman expert.

 

This is a page from The Locomotive Magazine (Volume 3, July 1898, page 106), listing the South Eastern’s two car trains, plus “The Tunbridge Wells Pullman,” as well as the photograph of Second Class Car No.203 from the Folkestone Car train from page 66 of the April issue that prompted the letter.

 

The Locomotive Magazine, 1898, Volume 3, 1898.pdf

 

 

Question (well, two actually): Was First Class Car No.171 on "The Tunbridge Wells Pullman” an actual Pullman, and if so, is this the earliest appearance of a Pullman car on the South Eastern Railway?

 

Dana

[AVS1998]

Car 171 (Later Pullman Parlour First Tulip) only became a Pullman proper in 1919 . Prior to that, it was a 'go anywhere' SER club car, able to run on both Hastings and Folkestone trains, and likely was on the T.W. Pullman (probably misnamed as the SER didn't use the term Pullman AFAIK) as it could run the Hastings route without clearance issues. It was the lone Jackson, Sharp car and was seen on both services. 

 

So, to answer your questions: no, it wasn't (at least not at the time of the publication) and no, as Pullmans never technically appeared on the SER (at least not pre-1910.)

[relaxinghobby]

 

Hi AVS1998 I put this on your thread as it is about the iconic Pullman Wild West roof style.

 

This is a call for help in constructing the iconic Pullman roof.

 

 

I modified this H0 Continental coach because it was the correct length and height and the windows looks Pullman-ish. CAn't remember the make.

The roof was built up with plasticard on top of the original grey one but over the years has warp into a banana shape. Dissimilar plastics and too much solvent glue I guess.

Any ideas on how to construct a new one or resurrect the old.

Whilst trying to force it straight again it snapped in two but each end is still remains banana.

 

 

The one in front is a cut down Graham Farish, 00 not n.

The bogie is a plastic kit from Ratio LNWR type, suitably old fashioned enough for me. The roof is a wooden pre-cut one, It was going to be for the Pullman but was too narrow so ended up on the Graham Farish.

 

Banana-ish, white is Plasticard, grey is original roof plastic.

 

Any ideas would be useful.

 

 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 04/01/2023 at 14:15, AVS1998 said:

Car 171 (Later Pullman Parlour First Tulip) only became a Pullman proper in 1919 . Prior to that, it was a 'go anywhere' SER club car, able to run on both Hastings and Folkestone trains, and likely was on the T.W. Pullman (probably misnamed as the SER didn't use the term Pullman AFAIK) as it could run the Hastings route without clearance issues. It was the lone Jackson, Sharp car and was seen on both services. 

 

So, to answer your questions: no, it wasn't (at least not at the time of the publication) and no, as Pullmans never technically appeared on the SER (at least not pre-1910.)

I knew you'd know!

[Dana Ashdown]

6 hours ago, relaxinghobby said:

 

Hi AVS1998 I put this on your thread as it is about the iconic Pullman Wild West roof style.

 

This is a call for help in constructing the iconic Pullman roof.

 

 

I modified this H0 Continental coach because it was the correct length and height and the windows looks Pullman-ish. CAn't remember the make.

The roof was built up with plasticard on top of the original grey one but over the years has warp into a banana shape. Dissimilar plastics and too much solvent glue I guess.

Any ideas on how to construct a new one or resurrect the old.

Whilst trying to force it straight again it snapped in two but each end is still remains banana.

 

 

The one in front is a cut down Graham Farish, 00 not n.

The bogie is a plastic kit from Ratio LNWR type, suitably old fashioned enough for me. The roof is a wooden pre-cut one, It was going to be for the Pullman but was too narrow so ended up on the Graham Farish.

 

Banana-ish, white is Plasticard, grey is original roof plastic.

 

Any ideas would be useful.

 

 

Have you tried putting the roof in hot water to make it more pliable before straightening? This might allow you to flex it back into shape without breaking. Then, clamp it between some wood until it cools down.

 

One of the big American suppliers/manufacturers used to sell clerestory roofs in both wood and plastic, but apparently they ceased making them years ago. The wooden ones could be shortened, and there were trim pieces for this.

[AVS1998]

I can only echo what Dana's suggested, really. The other main alternative would be to construct a new clerestory roof, but that's rather involved. I do wish there was a more reliable supply of Pullman/continental-style clerestory roofs, that'd be a boon.

 

 

[CKPR]

This is a long shot and it would require a lot of work, but David Jenkinson wrote an article in RM in 1966-7 [i.e. it will be in the Peco digital  archive for RM] on building a Midland Rly Pullman and gave very detailed instructions for making the roof. An updated version of his method can be found in his book on carriage modelling published by Wild Swan.

Edited January 14, 2023 by CKPR

[uax6]

I think what I would do is this...

Cut a new bit of plasticard to the same size as the outer guttery bits on the banana.

Cut the roof along the side of the clerestory (keeping the clerestory bit as one whole).

The outer normal roof will now be in two pieces. Remove the roof extensions from these parts. Offer up onto the new bit of plasticard and mark where it sits. This is to allow you to drill holes in the new bit to allow the solvent to vent through. These holes can be from 1mm to 5mm diameter. 

Soften the old roof in warm water till its pliable, then stick it down to the new bit of plasticard, and clamp it up and let it set overnight. Do this with each of the other two bits and hopefully you will have a flat roof.

 

Otherwise you will have to make one up, which isn't that difficult.

 

Andy G

[AVS1998]

 

(Credit: British Newspaper Archive, https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000293/19250307/037/0002 )

 

''That train has been running for over twenty years [...] At first it started from Bexhill and had a Pullman on it and then it came through to Hastings''. 

 

Interesting that the Bexhill Special Express seems, according to J. M. Glover, the author of 'Railway Deputation: A Member's Views', to have survived from its inception in 1900 in some form or other, and was highly successful. This is the only article I've found praising the Express to such a degree after around 1907, and I'm not going to take it as gospel that it did survive the Great War, but nevertheless, it's an interesting thought. I wonder why I've found no other mentions of its longevity (unless Glover is mistaken?)

 

[Tom Burnham]

Hmm, that's an interesting report. I wonder if the train continued to run only in July and August?  I suppose the idea was to provide a facility for business men (sorry!) whose families had taken a house at Bexhill for the summer. And of course to compete with the South Eastern. I don't think the Hastings Car Train ever had a Bexhill (West) portion. I'll have to see what the connection at Crowhurst Junction was like.  An early Southern Railway decision was to focus express traffic to Bexhill on the Bexhill West branch with portions of Hastings trains via Tonbridge.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Tom Burnham
Typo.

[burgundy]

My late father told me that his family used to holiday in Bexhill, with my grandfather travelling down (not sure if this was daily or at weekends). His job was to take my grandfather's newspaper up for the driver. I don't recall any mention of a Pullman but he did mention the engine still being in Improved Engine Green - so perhaps 1907 or 1908 at the latest. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[AVS1998]

Whoops! 

 

Well, I had the money... 

 

They're being delivered to my parents', I'm hoping to go home and visit next month. I'm unsure if I want to try and repaint them in SECR (I believe a proportion of the Chatham cars stayed in Lake until at least the late 20s) given how involved lining can be. I'll think on it. 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 08/03/2023 at 09:30, AVS1998 said:

I'm unsure if I want to try and repaint them in SECR (I believe a proportion of the Chatham cars stayed in Lake until at least the late 20s) given how involved lining can be. I'll think on it. 

I would buy some if Hornby released them in Lake, but alas, I don't think they have the good sense to do it.

 

Perhaps you could try a mock-up in Lake using an old body or part thereof. That way, if it doesn't work out, you haven't lost anything.

[wainwright1]

I would some in Lake, but I think we would have to wait until Hornby produce an appropriate SE&CR loco to pull them.

 

All the best

Ray

[AVS1998]

I was doing a bit of work on one of the cleredtories last night, trying to straighten out the bodywork (I trimmed it too short and now I'm having to infill which is a pain). The side pieces are just temporarily holding it together; strength will come from the roof and floor primarily, though I'll add some side bracing to the (eventual) cosmetic sides. I think I've still got Linny's laser sides knocking around...

 

I'm trying to fill in from underneath on the roof using thin card as a support for the filler, though I may switch to using a firm adhesive instead. I've also relocated the bogie mounts a smidge outboard, as, in a diagram, they're slightly further out than I'd placed them. I'm not sure if it looks right yet. Also taken off were the original American steps: UK Pullmans had conventional vertical steps rather than the stair type (if that makes sense). A ride bright comparison with an SECR car seems to confirm all's well. Buffer beams will come eventually, and buffers - this American car suffered a fall (along with me) on Saturday which wasn't fun. 

[AVS1998]

Good afternoon all, 

 

Now that I'm moved back to En-ger-land, rather than doing the sensible thing of unpacking my life's belongings (read: we have family visiting unexpectedly, and I'm not in the 'new' bedroom I'd expected to be in, and everything from the house, while renovations have been ongoing, have been shoehorned into my 'old' room, so there's no space for 'me'), I decided to have a small review of stock, and I have more Pullmans than I remembered! 

 

 

 

From the top, we have the three 'new' Dublo/Wrenn cars, which are set to become Savona, Emerald, and Corunna, SECR cars, sporting the very nice (albeit not-totally accurate) Dublo/Wrenn 'refresh' sticker-transfer products (which I haven't been able to find online since!). On the left-hand side of the second row is a faux Triang 'Davy Crockett' carriage which I bashed into a facsimile of one of the Hastings Gilberts. I'd like to replace it (and add to the collection) eventually with more accurate builds. 

 

Also present is one of the same company's 12W kitchen cars (of which I have three), along with two parlours. I'd like to eventually have all of these in SECR Lake, but this is a very fiddly livery to apply, especially in its Pullman form, and it's not gone all that well for me before. I'll make a decision eventually.  Forward again we have Palermo* and Daphne (Also Dublo/Wrenn), and toward the far end, the two Roundhouse Pullman Palace cars which I'm slowly (read: terrified of!) converting into a pair of Brighton clerestories. That's a very, very involved project, one which I'm struggling with, mostly due to the halved body shells struggling to stay adhered, even with internal bracing. I'll find a way! I suppose at some point I ought to try to build some 'normal' stock to pair with these. And a layout to display and run them on. Oh dear...

Edited Monday at 16:49 by AVS1998
*I've been re-reading Ford, volume 5, again, and now that I've got an idea of how it might work, I'm gradually more swayed to build Shamrock. But we'll see!

[CKPR]

Re. cutting'n'shutting Roadhouse Pullman Palace cars,when I rebuilt one into an observation car [Yosemite Valley RR], I ended up doing staggered joints with horizontal cuts along the cant rail. This was hard work to put it mildly, but the finished pieces almost clicked together and the finished body was very strong indeed.

[AVS1998]

Thank you, I'll take note of that and see what I come up with! For now I'm occupying myself with working out the interior and window layout for Shamrock (no, I'm not distracted, you're distracted!) Re-reading Ford's volume helped massively, despite me overlooking measurements several times. I've sketched out a floor plan in the meantime, I think it makes sense. I'm hoping I can work it around a third-class interior I've got that can be cut down in length. Mostly what will be needed is a bit of window rearrangement. 

[AVS1998]

Wee bit more work on Shamrock's floor plan last night. Ford states that the dimensions of the car are 57' 6'' over the saloon ends and 8'6'' wide, so pretty standard for SECR cars of this period. The saloon seating area itself was a little over 27', with the pantry being almost twice the size of other kitchen/buffet cars, though the kitchen was only slightly larger. Pullman didn't seem to standardise on things like toilet size, so I tried to make this fit according to what space was left. I also assumed that there would be an ice well in the corridor for bar and culinary purposes. 

 

 

The orange lines are assumed window placements, which I now realise perhaps isn't the most accurate. Ford advises that the exterior was similar to Clementina, Valentina etc, which seems fitting: six picture windows on the non-kitchen side, with two ovals (four for each seating bay, and two to the kitchen end for the corridor). Three picture windows spread across the kitchen/pantry, similar to the larger 12W kitchen cars of 1921. I do wonder whether the windows would be shorter in height... I"m sure this will all be blown out of the water when someone inevitably posts photos and a floor plan for Shamrock!  

 

I'm thinking I can use a Dublo/Wrenn car and a spare Hornby third class interior from a scrapped car for this, in time.