Problems in connecting two 00 Gauge DCC layouts?

[RedgateModels]

A good alternative to the SB5 is the MERG NB1 booster. Has been tested for use with the Powercab and at 30 quid for the kit and 25 for the power supply, is good value. You will need to source a suitable metal case too. Yes you have to be able to solder and be a member to have access to the kitlocker, but the membership opens you up to all sorts of other goodies/help etc etc.

[Tallpaul69]

6 hours ago, John ks said:

Most of the following has already been explained but if you prefer working with images 

 

Top image is a representation of your 2 layouts each with its own Power Cab

 

Next image is both layouts joined using one Power Cab & the second Power cab configured as a pro-cab

Last drawing is both layouts joined & using a SB5

Both power cabs use the coiled cable to make them pro-cabs

 

Hope this helps

john

Hi John,

Many thanks for your diagrams, they are a great help. I had just got to the point where I was going to draw a diagram for the combined layouts, but you have saved me the trouble! I have no problem with the addition of the cab bus, and alterations to the Track bus.

 

However, can I be cheeky and ask you to draw a revised version of the diagrams to take into account point and signal operations?

 

The relevant data is as follows: -

The end-to-end layout has 12 points and 12 signals that are operated via the NCE Power Cab Select Accy button. 

The roundy-round layout has 20 points operated via two DCC Concepts 12 channel push button panels daisy chained into the right-hand socket of that layout's utp panel. Signals, their operating solenoids and control electronics all made for me by Stephen Freeman, have yet to be installed, but it was envisaged that they would be operated by the Select Assy button on that layout's NCE Power Cab. 

 

I would prefer to keep the current way of operating the points and signals so as to minimise the new wiring, wiring alterations required.

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

3 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

A good alternative to the SB5 is the MERG NB1 booster. Has been tested for use with the Powercab and at 30 quid for the kit and 25 for the power supply, is good value. You will need to source a suitable metal case too. Yes you have to be able to solder and be a member to have access to the kitlocker, but the membership opens you up to all sorts of other goodies/help etc etc.

Hi There,

While I have only heard good things about MERG and their gear, realistically, this is not an option for me.

 

I have more than enough work to do on the layouts, without taking on electronics construction as well!

I have done such work in the past, some 40 years ago I made a FM Tuner kit, which worked well. So now time is more important to me than money and realising that the SB5 is of similar cost to a sound fitted 00 locomotive, it is ok.

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Ron Ron Ron]

32 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

……The end-to-end layout has 12 points and 12 signals that are operated via the NCE Power Cab Select Accy button. 

The roundy-round layout has 20 points operated via two DCC Concepts 12 channel push button panels daisy chained into the right-hand socket of that layout's utp panel.

 

Signals, their operating solenoids and control electronics all made for me by Stephen Freeman, have yet to be installed, but it was envisaged that they would be operated by the Select Assy button on that layout's NCE Power Cab. 

 

I would prefer to keep the current way of operating the points and signals so as to minimise the new wiring, wiring alterations required.

 

 If the DCC Concepts panels are the ready made Alpha Central, why not use the same again for the end-to-end?

 

Alternatively, create a mimic control panel, with the DCC Concepts’ encoder and panel kit.

It does the same job, but with a track diagram and LEDs.

 

Both these options only require you to plug these devices into a spare socket on a UTP, connecting them into the system’s cab bus.

Far easier to use than the cumbersome method of switching accessories via the handset.

 

The accessory decoders that will drive the points and signals, can either be directly connected to the track bus, or preferably, to a separate accessory bus, for reasons explained numerous times on the forum.

 

Note: An accessory bus is just another Power Bus, like the track bus.

It is fed from the same track power output of the system, but preferably with a cutout device protecting the track bus, but not the accessory bus. This will allow your accessories to continue working in the event of a track short, which trips the cutout devices and not the whole system.

 

 

.

[Tallpaul69]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 If the DCC Concepts panels are the ready made Alpha Central, why not use the same again for the end-to-end?

 

Alternatively, create a mimic control panel, with the DCC Concepts’ encoder and panel kit.

It does the same job, but with a track diagram and LEDs.

 

Both these options only require you to plug these devices into a spare socket on a UTP, connecting them into the system’s cab bus.

Far easier to use than the cumbersome method of switching accessories via the handset.

 

The accessory decoders that will drive the points and signals, can either be directly connected to the track bus, or preferably, to a separate accessory bus, for reasons explained numerous times on the forum.

 

Note: An accessory bus is just another Power Bus, like the track bus.

It is fed from the same track power output of the system, but preferably with a cutout device protecting the track bus, but not the accessory bus. This will allow your accessories to continue working in the event of a track short, which trips the cutout devices and not the whole system.

 

 

.

Thanks for your input.

Having used both the NCE Handset "Select Assy" and DCC Concepts "Alpha Central" method of points control, I don't think that the DCC Concepts is sufficiently better than the NCE Select Assy to warrant the cost and effort required to change over. Clearly if two layouts were being built from scratch then you would use the same system in both.

It has also to be remembered that I did not build either layout and so am loath to meddle. I am a great believer in "If it isn't bust, don't mend it", particularly when I have plenty of work that must be done on the layout!

 

So, if I am to introduce an Accessory Bus I want to do it with as little change to the existing wiring as possible. Yes, a cut out in the Track Bus makes sense.

I will give this some further thought, hopefully John will be able to do a diagram including accessories, which might clarify things!

Cheers

Paul 

[Tallpaul69]

Afternoon All,

I realised re reading my last post that when writing it my brain was not sufficiently in gear!

The builders of both my layouts, being professionals in their game, did, I am sure, include Accessory Bus.

 

That being the case, to provide an Accessory Bus on the combined layout, I think I will only need to disconnect one of the existing Accessory Bus from its track power feed and install a link between the two Accessory Bus?

The only thing I am not sure about is the impact of the fact that the DCC Concepts switch panels, and their associated point motors, being set up on a separate cab on the roundy round's NCE PowerCab to that of the track?

 

Any thoughts on this matter would be welcome. 

 

Many thanks

Paul      

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

........That being the case, to provide an Accessory Bus on the combined layout, I think I will only need to disconnect one of the existing Accessory Bus from its track power feed and install a link between the two Accessory Bus?

 

The only thing I am not sure about is the impact of the fact that the DCC Concepts switch panels, and their associated point motors, being set up on a separate cab on the roundy round's NCE PowerCab to that of the track?

 

 

It depends on how they set up the round round.

 

If the point decoders are connected to the accessory bus.......and the DCC Concepts Alpha Central units are connected to the NCE cab bus (via the PCP), then linking  the 2 accessory buses (layout 1 & 2) is all you need to do, provided these are isolated from the track bus(es).

 

If they've set up a separate DCC system, using the DCC Sniffer, or Smart Booster, with both the accessory decoders and the Alpha Central units connected to that separate system and not to the PowerCab, then it may or may not be so simple.

 

Could you confirm if the Alpha Central switch panels are connected to a socket on the PowerCab's PCP panel, or if they are connected to a separate DCC Concepts device?

 

 

.

[Tallpaul69]

17 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It depends on how they set up the round round.

 

If the point decoders are connected to the accessory bus.......and the DCC Concepts Alpha Central units are connected to the NCE cab bus (via the PCP), then linking  the 2 accessory buses (layout 1 & 2) is all you need to do, provided these are isolated from the track bus(es).

 

If they've set up a separate DCC system, using the DCC Sniffer, or Smart Booster, with both the accessory decoders and the Alpha Central units connected to that separate system and not to the PowerCab, then it may or may not be so simple.

 

Could you confirm if the Alpha Central switch panels are connected to a socket on the PowerCab's PCP panel, or if they are connected to a separate DCC Concepts device?

 

 

.

Hi,

There are no Smart Booster or Sniffer, the DCC Concepts Alpha Centrals are connected to a socket on the PowerCab's PCP Panel.

Cheers

Paul 

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi,

There are no Smart Booster or Sniffer, the DCC Concepts Alpha Centrals are connected to a socket on the PowerCab's PCP Panel.

Cheers

Paul 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Therefore the Alpha Central switch panels are operating like any other cab/throttle on the cab bus and can be plugged into any UTP fitted to the cab bus on the combined layouts.

 

The separate accessory bus can be extended to include both layouts.

This will supply the point decoders across the whole combined layout.

 

Points and signals across the combined layouts, can then be controlled from any handset plugged in to any socket on either layout....

....and from any appropriately programmed Alpha Central plugged in to any socket on either layout.

 

No extra or complicated wiring will be needed, other than linking the respective buses together between each layout.

Track bus to track bus

Accessory bus to accessory bus

Cab bus to cab bus.

 

 

.

 

 

 

[Tallpaul69]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

No extra or complicated wiring will be needed, other than linking the respective buses together between each layout.

Track bus to track bus

Accessory bus to accessory bus

Cab bus to cab bus.

 

I don't think there is an existing Cab Bus as such in either layout because the controls in each case are single NCE PoweCabs plugged into the only UTP, as shown in John's first two diagrams.

However, I don't think installing a Cab Bus will be too difficult.

Cheers

Paul

[Ron Ron Ron]

15 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I don't think there is an existing Cab Bus as such in either layout because the controls in each case are single NCE PoweCabs plugged into the only UTP, as shown in John's first two diagrams.

However, I don't think installing a Cab Bus will be too difficult.

 

 

The panels you are using to plug in the PowerCabs, are PCP's  (Power Cab Panels), not UTP's.

 

If you are going to add the SB5 Smart Booster, then the PCP's will need to be used as UTP's, by simply disconnecting both their power supplies (no longer needed) and their track output connections.

(*Note that track bus supply will now come from the track output socket on the SB5.)

 

Theses two panels can then be linked together to form your Cab Bus, with the appropriate cable (e.g. using the sockets on the rear for tidiness).

Additional UTP's (not PCP's) can be added to this new Cab Bus if you wanted more sockets installed around the layout.

The panels are just daisy chained together.

The first panel on this Cab Bus will be connected to one of the SB5's Cab Bus terminals.

 

 

.

[Tallpaul69]

Good day everyone,

I have started compiling a list of the things I need to connect my two layouts from a control point of view. I have to estimate/measure the lengths of the various cables.

I intend as far as possible to avoid soldering by use cholate blocks with new cable and repurposed NCE PCPs as UTPs and pre terminated cables. Hopefully I can find suitable items in the DCC Concepts range, some of which will be stocked by my local model shop AGR, other they will no doubt order in for me.

A key decision is whether to use the NCE SB5 as the power booster or the DCC Concepts Cobalt Alpha Box. I know the SB5s are not due in from the States until early new year

This is not a problem as I don't foresee doing this work until January/February, and if global warming doesn't send us a warm winter, it could be the Spring!  

 

Cheers for now,

Paul

Edited November 9, 2022 by Tallpaul69
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