What is this pipe?

[johnarcher]

Not being a Terrier expert (I just want to produce one of the S&M three) I don't have the relevant books,so maybe some kind specialist can help.

Two of those three (all A1) have the condensing pipes from front of tanks to smokebox, the other has a pipe one side from high on the smokebox, between handrail and chimney, back along the boiler and angles up into the outer edge of the cab front, level with the window.

What is this, what happens to it in the cab, how is it fixed along the boiler? I have searched online but can't find a good picture of the back end of this pipe.

[bécasse]

I suspect that you are referring to the vacuum ejector exhaust pipe. It wasn't fitted as built but was a retrofit, so details varied from loco to loco.

[johnarcher]

26 minutes ago, bécasse said:

I suspect that you are referring to the vacuum ejector exhaust pipe. It wasn't fitted as built but was a retrofit, so details varied from loco to loco.

Thanks for the answer, you don't know of any helpful pictures for its route and fixings?

Actually would an exhaust run through the cab front into the cab?

[Flying Pig]

29 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Actually would an exhaust run through the cab front into the cab?

 

Other way round I think.

 

The job of the ejector is to eject air from the brake system to create a vacuum.  It's a clever device which uses a jet of steam to do that without moving parts and the mixture of steam and air then has to be exhausted, usually up the chimney.  Ejectors are sometimes fixed on the smokebox side with a control rod from the cab (see for example Midland engines) but are often near or within the cab with an exhaust pipe to the smokebox, as apparently in this case.

[johnarcher]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Other way round I think.

 

The job of the ejector is to eject air from the brake system to create a vacuum.  It's a clever device which uses a jet of steam to do that without moving parts and the mixture of steam and air then has to be exhausted, usually up the chimney.  Ejectors are sometimes fixed on the smokebox side with a control rod from the cab (see for example Midland engines) but are often near or within the cab with an exhaust pipe to the smokebox, as apparently in this case.

Of course, thank you, I feel a bit silly now. I have found some more pictures giving some idea of its course and fixing, but not so clear about what happens to it inside the cab. Presumably it would rise from the braking system?

[Flying Pig]

46 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Of course, thank you, I feel a bit silly now. I have found some more pictures giving some idea of its course and fixing, but not so clear about what happens to it inside the cab. Presumably it would rise from the braking system?

 

The image here shows a possible arrangement inside the cab (btw I just searched "Stroudley terrier cab").  If these were retrofitted systems, they might well be different in detail for a specific loco.

[bécasse]

4 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The image here shows a possible arrangement inside the cab (btw I just searched "Stroudley terrier cab").  If these were retrofitted systems, they might well be different in detail for a specific loco.

Going through my reasonably comprehensive data on Terriers, including the books by both the late Colin Binnie and the late Handel Kardas, I came to the conclusion that, in later years at least, no two surviving Terriers were alike. You mentioned that you are intending to model an A1 and even they seem to have differed quite considerably by the time they were either disposed off or converted to A1Xs, and, of course, they were originally built in batches and, surprise, surprise, these batches also differed from each other!

 

I have had a passing interest in Terriers for years, not least because I lived for 27 years in a house built in what had been Stroudley's back garden. Given that the house was no.5, you won't be surprised to learn that I used a replica GWR cab side number plate to display the number.

 

 

[johnarcher]

6 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The image here shows a possible arrangement inside the cab (btw I just searched "Stroudley terrier cab").  If these were retrofitted systems, they might well be different in detail for a specific loco.

Thanks again. Actually I had seen that picture, I guess the whole red-handled control the other side of the window (spectacle?) operates the exhaust, and a pipe runs up to that from somewhere below?

Yes, Becasse, having also GW interests I am reminded of the variety of the 517 class. Unfortunately the Shropshire and Montgomery three vary, though all A1, and there's only a couple of often poor photos of each, so one must try and fill in details from elsewhere.

 

[Flying Pig]

18 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Thanks again. Actually I had seen that picture, I guess the whole red-handled control the other side of the window (spectacle?) operates the exhaust, and a pipe runs up to that from somewhere below?

 

I think the red handle controls the driver's brake valve, used to apply and release the brake.  At a guess, the two brass nuts on the left indicate the two ejector cones and the brass handle next to them is the main steam cock; steam comes in at the top and the connection to the train pipe is at the bottom. I don't know what the other pipes do.  Here's a period description of the system I found on the Web:

 

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r143.html

[johnarcher]

13 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think the red handle controls the driver's brake valve, used to apply and release the brake.  At a guess, the two brass nuts on the left indicate the two ejector cones and the brass handle next to them is the main steam cock; steam comes in at the top and the connection to the train pipe is at the bottom. I don't know what the other pipes do.  Here's a period description of the system I found on the Web:

 

http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r143.html

Thanks again for your help, I'll study the article, and then must decide whether to go for this pipe ( on Dido), or the condensing pipes (on Hecate or Daphne).

[Flying Pig]

40 minutes ago, johnarcher said:

Thanks again for your help, I'll study the article, and then must decide whether to go for this pipe ( on Dido), or the condensing pipes (on Hecate or Daphne).

 

I think you need to research the locos a bit more.  If Dido was the only one with vacuum brakes, was she the only one able to pull pasenger trains? Does that matter to you?  Here's a picture of Hecate showing she was fitted with air brake equipment (Westinghouse pump on the cabside) at least earlier in her S&MR career.  Was that used or just a leftover from her previous career, like the condensing pipes?

 

Shropshire and Montgomery Railway no 7 HECATE at Kinnerley September 29th 1923 by Charlie Verrall, on Flickr

Edited November 1, 2022 by Flying Pig

[johnarcher]

40 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

I think you need to research the locos a bit more.  If Dido was the only one with vacuum brakes, was she the only one able to pull pasenger trains? Does that matter to you?  Here's a picture of Hecate showing she was fitted with air brake equipment (Westinghouse pump on the cabside) at least earlier in her S&MR career.  Was that used or just a leftover from her previous career, like the condensing pipes?

 

Shropshire and Montgomery Railway no 7 HECATE at Kinnerley September 29th 1923 by Charlie Verrall, on Flickr

I have read, but can't search for where just now, that those two kept the pumps even after they were used. Looking at that picture before I thought  I saw a vacuum pipe on the front buffer beam. Though the question of passenger use wouldn't be crucial.

[IWCR]

The loco itself was air braked even when vaccum equiupment was fitted for  the train brake.  Some  were converted  to  steam  brake  and  the  pump  removed.  The  pipes on  the  front  of  Hecate  do  look  like Vaccum.  BR  era  terriers  had  a  large  Vaccum  ejector  in  the  front  L/H  corner  of  the  cab with  the  exhaust  being  run  along  the  tank  top  to  the  smokebox.  This  pipe   is  not  visible  in  the  Hecate  photo  but  there  is  a  small  pipe  to / from  something  in  the  middle  front  of  the  cab,  this  could  relate  to  a  small  ejector.

 

Pete

[johnarcher]

On 01/11/2022 at 18:58, IWCR said:

The loco itself was air braked even when vaccum equiupment was fitted for  the train brake.  Some  were converted  to  steam  brake  and  the  pump  removed.  The  pipes on  the  front  of  Hecate  do  look  like Vaccum.  BR  era  terriers  had  a  large  Vaccum  ejector  in  the  front  L/H  corner  of  the  cab with  the  exhaust  being  run  along  the  tank  top  to  the  smokebox.  This  pipe   is  not  visible  in  the  Hecate  photo  but  there  is  a  small  pipe  to / from  something  in  the  middle  front  of  the  cab,  this  could  relate  to  a  small  ejector.

 

Pete

I see what you mean about the small pipe, if it is an ejector where might it run to? I can't see any sign of it getting to the smokebox. 

[bécasse]

None of the three S&M Terriers would have been fitted with vacuum gear by the Brighton, it might have been fitted during their brief period in Government service (at two different Scottish locations) but I doubt it, which means that in all probability it was fitted when they were acquired by the S&M. It might be worth seeing what was done on other similar locos around the Stephen's empire - Terriers on other lines and even the three Welsh Highland locos vacuum fitted in 1923/4.

[johnarcher]

8 hours ago, bécasse said:

None of the three S&M Terriers would have been fitted with vacuum gear by the Brighton, it might have been fitted during their brief period in Government service (at two different Scottish locations) but I doubt it, which means that in all probability it was fitted when they were acquired by the S&M. It might be worth seeing what was done on other similar locos around the Stephen's empire - Terriers on other lines and even the three Welsh Highland locos vacuum fitted in 1923/4.

According to Johnson's history of the line all three were fitted with vacuum brake, though the pumps were not removed. There aren't many photos but Dido seems to be the only one with the obvious exhaust from the ejector.

[johnarcher]

I must admit the more I look at this the less I feel that I understand the pipework on any of these three enough to make a model. In the Hecate picture above there is a small pipe coming from the middle of the cab front and down, and seems to cross to the near tank top  between whistle and dome. This seems the likeliest candidate for vacuum exhaust.

Also what I think is exhaust from the Westinghouse pump goes up on to the same tank top.

At the front end I think there is a pipe running to the smokebox just above the handrail. Presumably this the other end of one of those two, but which?

 

[johnarcher]

PS, just as a matter of interest, Flying Pig mentioned passenger trains, if a minor line (not vacuum using S&M) had stuck with air brake (as I believe the LBSC did) is there a date after which they couldn't use that for passenger work? 

I think the Bishops Castle used ancient chain brake until about 1923.

[johnarcher]

PS, just as a matter of interest, Flying Pig mentioned passenger trains, if a minor line (not vacuum using S&M) had stuck with air brake (as I believe the LBSC did) is there a date after which they couldn't use that for passenger work? 

(I think the Bishops Castle used even ancient chain brake until about 1923.)

[Nick Holliday]

7 hours ago, johnarcher said:

PS, just as a matter of interest, Flying Pig mentioned passenger trains, if a minor line (not vacuum using S&M) had stuck with air brake (as I believe the LBSC did) is there a date after which they couldn't use that for passenger work? 

(I think the Bishops Castle used even ancient chain brake until about 1923.)

Are you suggesting that the Westinghouse brake was banned at some time?

Because of the special nature of the GER commuter services from Liverpool Street station, the LNER Quint-Art sets provided post-grouping continued the use of the air brake, which wasn’t discontinued until the mass withdrawal of that stock around 1960, presumably around the time of the electrification of those services. 
I seem to recall reading about an interesting problem in the 1950’s when the Southern Region had to handle some Quint-Art stock which was going to the Farnborough Air Show, and had to search around for suitable ex-LBSCR locos that had retained the Westinghouse brake to handle the trains involved.

[johnarcher]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

Are you suggesting that the Westinghouse brake was banned at some time?

Because of the special nature of the GER commuter services from Liverpool Street station, the LNER Quint-Art sets provided post-grouping continued the use of the air brake, which wasn’t discontinued until the mass withdrawal of that stock around 1960, presumably around the time of the electrification of those services. 
I seem to recall reading about an interesting problem in the 1950’s when the Southern Region had to handle some Quint-Art stock which was going to the Farnborough Air Show, and had to search around for suitable ex-LBSCR locos that had retained the Westinghouse brake to handle the trains involved.

Sorry, I misinterpreted his comment, it obviously just meant that a locomotive with air brake only could not work passenger stock on a vacuum braked line, just unfitted freight. Thanks for your clarification.

[johnarcher]

12 hours ago, johnarcher said:

I must admit the more I look at this the less I feel that I understand the pipework on any of these three enough to make a model. In the Hecate picture above there is a small pipe coming from the middle of the cab front and down, and seems to cross to the near tank top  between whistle and dome. This seems the likeliest candidate for vacuum exhaust.

Also what I think is exhaust from the Westinghouse pump goes up on to the same tank top.

At the front end I think there is a pipe running to the smokebox just above the handrail. Presumably this the other end of one of those two, but which?

 

Further to this, would it be technically possible for the two exhausts to join on the tank top and run in a single, common pipe to the smokebox?

[Flying Pig]

10 hours ago, johnarcher said:

Sorry, I misinterpreted his comment, it obviously just meant that a locomotive with air brake only could not work passenger stock on a vacuum braked line, just unfitted freight. Thanks for your clarification.

 

Yes I was alluding to compatibility of the braking system on the loco with passenger stock used by the railway.