Kings Cross to Fort William and Mallaig c1973/4?

[Morello Cherry]

I fell down a rabbit hole looking at the PTM lists on the yahoo/google carriage group. And I have probably given this too much thought. I was trying to work out from it how the carriages were shunted mid journey and what would have hauled the trains. I think I have more questions than answers after looking at it. I was wondering if anyone can shine a light on the workings and if my deductions are wrong. I am figuring that the shunts at Edinburgh and Glasgow were not photographed as I can't imagine many people hanging around at 3-5 am to take photos.

 

So from what have gathered it leaves Kings Cross at 19.55 (1S60) (FSX) as:

 

Loco

SLSTP

SLF          } Fort William

BCK

SLSTP

SLF

TSO

SK

SK            } Aberdeen

SK

CK

BG

BG

 

Must have been a bit noisy if you were heading to Fort William. I am assuming a 55 or 47 for the engine? 45?

 

It says must not exceed 13 vehicles - what could the 13th vehicle have been and why?

 

At Edinburgh things get a bit confusing for me. The Fort William portion comes off the front. An RB and BSO are added to the front and a BG to the rear of the Aberdeen portion (the rear BG going to Dundee) - I am assuming a loco change for the Aberdeen portion which leaves at 03.32 - 47 or 40 as it would be 12 carriages?

 

The Fort William portion doesn't leave till 04.35 (1T03) but this is where the shunting and marshalling gets to my mind complex. In the PTM it has the following

 

BG                               } Cambridge to Glasgow ex 13.32 parcels from Liverpool Street

TSO (MO)

BSK b                          } Glasgow                             

BCK (TO)

BSK c (SX)                  } Edinburgh to Mallaig

SLSTP

SLF                             } Fort William

BCK

 

b to 2/6 and from 3/9

c from 4/6 and to 1/9

 

If have this right in the summer the formation depending on the day of the week is:

MO        TO          MTX          SO

Loco       Loco     Loco          Loco

BG          BG         BG             BG

TSO        BCK       BSK           SLSTP

BSK        BSK       SLSTP        SLF

SLSTP    SLSTP    SLF            BCK

SLF         SLF        BCK  

BCK        BCK

 

Anyone have any idea why monday and tuesday would need a TSO or BCK but not the rest of the week?

 

Would the train engine from Kings X have shunted the carriages for FW into another platform and then the station pilot or Glasgow train engine then added the stock for Glasgow? I assume that the BSK, TSO/BCK, BG could be made up as one in advance. I am assuming that the aim would be to minimise the number of shunting moves/buffering ups, or is that a naive assumption?

 

Any ideas for haulage - 27? 40? 25? 20...?

 

It says not to exceed 275 tons but even the 6 carriage formation is listed as only 218? Any ideas as to what and why there might be extra on it?

 

It arrives at Queen Street and then leaves at 06.00 as 1B07 and with the following formation:

 

Loco

CCT   } Fort William

BCK

SLF     } Kings Cross - Fort William

SLSTP

BSK    } Edinburgh - Mallaig

TSO

RB      } Glasgow - Mallaig

CK

BSK

 

So I am assuming that the train arrives in Queen Street, the loco and the BG (ex-Cambridge) and TSO/BCK would be uncoupled. New train engine + CCT drops down and then shunts onto the TSO, RB, CK, BSK which would be in another platform and then the train departs (or would the shunt be done by a station pilot?).

 

Also, the CCT - why a CCT (and not say a GUV or a BG) and would it be a BR Mk1 CCT or could it be an ex-SR/LNER/LMS CCT?

 

Considering the formation is 9 coaches - Locos I assume a pair of 24/25/27s?

 

Arrives in Fort William and the day coaches depart at 10.45 to Mallaig. So if you had travelled up from London and were heading to Mallaig or beyond you move into the stock - although after 14 hours on a train you'd probably need a compartment with the door shut and the windows open.

 

Loco

BSK

CK

RB

TSO

BSK

 

A fresh loco or would the Glasgow locos run round and work the train to Mallaig?

 

Apologies for the long post.

[Simon Lee]

 

OP trimmed to keep length down. Replies in bold under pertinent question.

 

Must have been a bit noisy if you were heading to Fort William. I am assuming a 55 or 47 for the engine? 45?

 

Booked a 55 I‘ve had 55 / 47 / 46 on this and later when departure time moved to 2000

 

It says must not exceed 13 vehicles - what could the 13th vehicle have been and why?

 

Any number of reasons, any type of stock - stock transfer, party booking, predicted high loadings – holidays etc  

 

At Edinburgh things get a bit confusing for me. The Fort William portion comes off the front. An RB and BSO are added to the front and a BG to the rear of the Aberdeen portion (the rear BG going to Dundee) - I am assuming a loco change for the Aberdeen portion which leaves at 03.32 - 47 or 40 as it would be 12 carriages?

 

Inwards loco off to Haymarket. Forward loco 40 or 47

 

The Fort William portion doesn't leave till 04.35 (1T03) but this is where the shunting and marshalling gets to my mind complex. In the PTM it has the following

 

BG                               } Cambridge to Glasgow ex 13.32 parcels from Liverpool Street

TSO (MO)

BSK b                          } Glasgow                             

BCK (TO)

BSK c (SX)                  } Edinburgh to Mallaig

SLSTP

SLF                             } Fort William

BCK

 

b to 2/6 and from 3/9

c from 4/6 and to 1/9

 

If have this right in the summer the formation depending on the day of the week is:

MO        TO          MTX          SO

Loco       Loco     Loco          Loco

BG          BG         BG             BG

TSO        BCK       BSK           SLSTP

BSK        BSK       SLSTP        SLF

SLSTP    SLSTP    SLF            BCK

SLF         SLF        BCK  

BCK        BCK

 

Anyone have any idea why monday and tuesday would need a TSO or BCK but not the rest of the week?

 

Royal Navy personnel returning to the Clyde bases after weekend leave. The Monday departure was normally rammed from the Waverley.

 

Would the train engine from Kings X have shunted the carriages for FW into another platform and then the station pilot or Glasgow train engine then added the stock for Glasgow? I assume that the BSK, TSO/BCK, BG could be made up as one in advance. I am assuming that the aim would be to minimise the number of shunting moves/buffering ups, or is that a naive assumption?

 

Normally the station pilot would do the shunts.

 

Any ideas for haulage - 27? 40? 25? 20...?

 

Have had a 40 and 47 at different times between Waverley and Queen Street.

 

It says not to exceed 275 tons but even the 6 carriage formation is listed as only 218? Any ideas as to what and why there might be extra on it?

 

See above, stock moves, additional traffic etc.

 

It arrives at Queen Street and then leaves at 06.00 as 1B07 and with the following formation:

 

Loco

CCT   } Fort William

BCK

SLF     } Kings Cross - Fort William

SLSTP

BSK    } Edinburgh - Mallaig

TSO

RB      } Glasgow - Mallaig

CK

BSK

 

So I am assuming that the train arrives in Queen Street, the loco and the BG (ex-Cambridge) and TSO/BCK would be uncoupled. New train engine + CCT drops down and then shunts onto the TSO, RB, CK, BSK which would be in another platform and then the train departs (or would the shunt be done by a station pilot?).

 

Pilot loco normally for shunts

 

Also, the CCT - why a CCT (and not say a GUV or a BG) and would it be a BR Mk1 CCT or could it be an ex-SR/LNER/LMS CCT?

 

Actual or planned loadings, any 4 wheel van could turn up.

 

Considering the formation is 9 coaches - Locos I assume a pair of 24/25/27s?

 

27’s were staple power

 

Arrives in Fort William and the day coaches depart at 10.45 to Mallaig. So if you had travelled up from London and were heading to Mallaig or beyond you move into the stock - although after 14 hours on a train you'd probably need a compartment with the door shut and the windows open.

 

Loco

BSK

CK

RB

TSO

BSK

 

A fresh loco or would the Glasgow locos run round and work the train to Mallaig?

 

Fresh loco

 

 

 

 

[mark54]

The 13th coach leaving Kings Cross was an RU for dinner service, marshalled at the front of the train and detached at York. This would have been transferred from the back of the 15:30 Leeds on arrival at Kings Cross.

[Morello Cherry]

@Simon Lee - thank you for that very comprehensive answer. I can't imagine it was a peaceful night's sleep with all those shunts.

[coronach]

I travelled on this in 1971 from York to Spean Bridge.  Although I was only seven years old, I remember walking down the steps to York platform 16 - Class 40 on the front, our sleeping cars were towards the front of the train.  Class 27 from Glasgow - had a cooked breakfast in the restaurant car crossing Rannoch Moor.  

[The Stationmaster]

On 08/11/2022 at 14:34, coronach said:

I travelled on this in 1971 from York to Spean Bridge.  Although I was only seven years old, I remember walking down the steps to York platform 16 - Class 40 on the front, our sleeping cars were towards the front of the train.  Class 27 from Glasgow - had a cooked breakfast in the restaurant car crossing Rannoch Moor.  

That was the rescar to be in - the one attached at Glasgow Queen St.  Best breakfast on BR without a shadow of doubt and the working day for the crew was so long they worked alternately one day one day off on that job.  But from what I saw of them working and from what one former crew member told me years later they were a really great bunch of  guys who loved the work pattern.