Help with signalling a French layout

[Pacific231G]

On 21/02/2023 at 11:50, Wagonmaster said:

Thanks for that Gordonwis. I'm beginning to think that you are right about the location. Maybe a provincial setting would be better. The thing is that this is not my msin layout, but something to run my collection of French trains on. I chose single track as I am a bit space starved. It is also a bit of a test bed for trying out various things, but mainly JMRI. It does show me how different French railways are and just how little I actually know about them!I

Thanks for the photograph, very useful. One query, what is the small white disc next to the main signals? Looks like it lights up, is it a single white manoeuvre?

 

 

I think that disk is a loudspeaker on the pole before the signal portal.

The main signals, which are non franchisable, don't have an ouilleton  so presumably don't have a Sémaphore aspect and would have to cleared (probably to avertissement  (yellow) rather than voie libre (green) for any shunting beyond them. It's not uncommon though for the carrés  to act as block signals for the section ahead and some lines were entirely block signalled mechanically without sémaphores  but just carrés and avertissements. (Paris-Bastille and the line out of it comes to mind but it normally does with me when French termini are concerned) 

I agree with Gordon about St. Paul as an interesting prototype. Not only was it very compact but it also had a general goods yard (probably serving that district of Lyon rather than the line it served for passengers coming to and from the city)  

Lyon St Paul 1933 

Lyon St Paul 1984 

St. Paul has a scissors crossover just inside the tunnel (which is quite long) 

France did and does, as Gordon says, have a good number of city termini on branches from a main line that skirts the city, Tours and Orleans come immediately to mind as well as Biarritz but the only one I can think of with a single track branch was Saumur-Etat and that was a very modest station not much closer to the town centre than the main station. 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Pacific231G
voie libre is green not red. dohhh!

[Gordonwis]

8 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

France did and does, as Gordon says, have a good number of city termini on branches from a main line that skirts the city, Tours and Orleans come immediately to mind as well as Biarritz but the only one I can think of with a single track branch was Saumur-Etat and that was a very modest station not much closer to the town centre than the main station. 

 

 

 

 

 

I deliberately avoided putting forward Tours and Orleans , as they are too big, which is why I proposed Lyon St Paul - as a tightly 'hemmed in' station with a very narrow entry point - much more like what seems to be the layout type under discussion here.

 

 

[Wagonmaster]

 

Yes, it is a loudspeaker! Examining too closely here!

 

Just going back to the Guidon possibly protecting a level crossing. I would imagine there would be one either side of the crossing? Would these signals be operated by the gates themselves, the signal box or by the crossing keeper?

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Wagonmaster

[Pacific231G]

On 21/02/2023 at 23:42, Wagonmaster said:

 

Yes, it is a loudspeaker! Examining too closely here!

 

Just going back to the Guidon possibly protecting a level crossing. I would imagine there would be one either side of the crossing? Would these signals be operated by the gates themselves, the signal box or by the crossing keeper?

 

 

No, the Guidon protecting level crossings is purely to enable shunting moves to take place in its vicinity without the barriers having to be closed. It's an absolute stop signal for shunting moves equivalent to a red flag. For a service train leaving the station the barriers would, if close to the station, be closed by the station staff (or signal box if there is one) or possibly by the activation of an approach treadle which I assume would be disabled when the Guidon was lit. A train approaching the station would trigger the barriers automatically as it approached. The Guidon isn't a conventional signal as it doesn't have an open indication, so it's either closed or regarded as not being present. 

 

 

I did find one while exploring the closed but not yet abandoned  terminus at St. Valery en Caux and it was operated by a press switch in the yard just beyond the platform but some way from the level crossing it had protected. At that station- like most others- there was no signalbox as such and the block instruments (if any)  would have been in the Chef de Gare's office. That line may well have been operated by block telephonique  so with no block instruments (though such a line nowadays would be equipped with CAPI) or by BMVU (block manual voie unique)   

Manual level crossings close to stations were generally operated by the station staff - often wound down from a little distance- but those out in the countryside used to have crossing keepers. Given the vast number of level crossings in France that must have been a fairly enormous expense for the railways. 

 

AFAIK French level crossings are not interlocked with the signalling and the only ones I've come across level crossings protected by signals are on the CF du Baie de Somme where a flashing red light indicates to train drivers that the automatic barriers have closed (but that is a relatively recent installation) and on the metre gauge Blanc-Argent where the only signals were carrés protecting crossings with standard gauge lines and certain important road crossings. At Lucay-le-Male (at that time was the terminus of SNCF operation of the line) there was a carré beyond the level crossing and both it and the level crossing barriers were operated remotely by the Chef de Gare with a lever and a winding handle  just outside the station building

 

The Chef winched down the barriers then opened the carré for an arriving train then closed the carré and opened the barriers. When the train departed the Chef closed the barriers then waved the train off. There was no open ticket office and, so far as I could tell, doing that a couple of times a day, and making the relevant calls to the regulateur at Romorantin on the omnibus telephone line was  the totality of her daily duties.  

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Pacific231G
The Blanc Argent had a central regulateur (despatcher) in Romorantin rather than station to station single line block working.

[Wagonmaster]

Fascinating! A very different way of running a railway! 

 

So just a few more questions if I may. Looking at the photograph Gordonwis posted, the first thing that strikes me is that the signals are mounted on a gantry. I have seen this quite often in photographs, even with Signeaux Mechanique. Is this quite common and is it something I should be using?  I had originally been thinking of seperate posts at the end of each platform. The other thing I didn't mention was that I was intending the layout to have 1500V dc OHLE.

 

Also in the photograph I see they are all '4 aspect' signals. So how would a shunting move be signalled? I have been looking at some Disc Rouge signals on the Jura Modellisme website and they are very expensive, so use of '4 aspect' rather than '5 aspect' would be more cost effective. It would also be easier to drive from a dcc decoder! It is due to the expense of these signals that I want to get the scheme correct and working (virtually) on my panel before parting with any cash!  Unless there are any cheaper alternative makes I don't know about?

 

Reading more on French signalling answered a previous question. I see that red lights are used at platform buffer stops and violet lights on siding buffer stops.

 

 

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Wagonmaster said:

Fascinating! A very different way of running a railway! 

 

So just a few more questions if I may. Looking at the photograph Gordonwis posted, the first thing that strikes me is that the signals are mounted on a gantry. I have seen this quite often in photographs, even with Signeaux Mechanique. Is this quite common and is it something I should be using?  I had originally been thinking of seperate posts at the end of each platform. The other thing I didn't mention was that I was intending the layout to have 1500V dc OHLE.

 

Also in the photograph I see they are all '4 aspect' signals. So how would a shunting move be signalled? I have been looking at some Disc Rouge signals on the Jura Modellisme website and they are very expensive, so use of '4 aspect' rather than '5 aspect' would be more cost effective. It would also be easier to drive from a dcc decoder! It is due to the expense of these signals that I want to get the scheme correct and working (virtually) on my panel before parting with any cash!  Unless there are any cheaper alternative makes I don't know about?

 

Reading more on French signalling answered a previous question. I see that red lights are used at platform buffer stops and violet lights on siding buffer stops.

 

 

signal gantries were/are very common in France and they always look rather heavy but must have made signal maintenance and oiling (in the days of pre-electric lit mechanical signals) far easier. 

I thnk the reason for the shunting aspect in the Loco Revue worked example may have been because moves could be made into blind sidings. There were none of those leading out of St. Paul so clearing to yellow or even green would have enabled any such move. Remember that in the French system signals aren't telling the driver what moves to make do but rather restricting those moves where necessary,  e.g. don't move at more than 15 km/h, or don't  proceed past this signal, or don't go into the net block beyond station limits. 

Violet lights generally refer to voies de service   so not having them at the end of a running lines (voie principal) is consistent.  

[Gordonwis]

1 hour ago, Wagonmaster said:

 

 

Reading more on French signalling answered a previous question. I see that red lights are used at platform buffer stops and violet lights on siding buffer stops.

 

 

 

Violet lights replace red on any signal in sidings 

[Gordonwis]

1 hour ago, Wagonmaster said:

 

 

So just a few more questions if I may. Looking at the photograph Gordonwis posted, the first thing that strikes me is that the signals are mounted on a gantry. I have seen this quite often in photographs, even with Signeaux Mechanique. Is this quite common and is it something I should be using?  

 

 

 

 

Yes, ridiculously so. The late Andy Hart - doyen of the SNCF Society used to quote a phrase he had seen in a book. I can't think of the exact phrase any more, but it was something along the lines of 'The French railway engineers go to great lengths to build edifices akin to the Eifel Tower just to house a lightbulb...

 

However they are often mixed with single posts

 

Here's a start from my collection - Epinal north and south ends, circa 1980

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

2 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

. The other thing I didn't mention was that I was intending the layout to have 1500V dc OHLE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ramps up the case for Lyon St Paul even more! There were electric hauled commuter trains  at one time using BB8100 (rare on passenger) and even ex BB BB 1 - 80 class, plus Z7100. Latterly the wires were de-energised and Picasso and Caravelle railcars took over   

Edited February 23, 2023 by Gordonwis

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks again for all your replies. I have a plan forming now for the signalling. I'll just use 4 aspect signals and use a yellow for a shunt move, which is what JMRI was giving me anyway!

 

Very useful pictures again Gordonwis, thanks. Yes, that's a typical Andy Hart observation on French ironmongery! I have a couple of Andy's models in my collection that will run on this layout. The mix of gantries and posts, as per your photographs, solves a problem with signal positioning, so thanks again for that.

 

Now to source some affordable signals. Any ideas?

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

Thanks again for all your replies. I have a plan forming now for the signalling. I'll just use 4 aspect signals and use a yellow for a shunt move, which is what JMRI was giving me anyway!

 

Very useful pictures again Gordonwis, thanks. Yes, that's a typical Andy Hart observation on French ironmongery! I have a couple of Andy's models in my collection that will run on this layout. The mix of gantries and posts, as per your photographs, solves a problem with signal positioning, so thanks again for that.

 

Now to source some affordable signals. Any ideas?

 

I was going to say Drim 3D, only to find they have given up model railways. They made superb stuff in N (my interest) and HO, signals in particular. I had no idea they had given up - very bad news

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

Thanks again for all your replies. I have a plan forming now for the signalling. I'll just use 4 aspect signals and use a yellow for a shunt move, which is what JMRI was giving me anyway!

 

Very useful pictures again Gordonwis, thanks. Yes, that's a typical Andy Hart observation on French ironmongery! I have a couple of Andy's models in my collection that will run on this layout. The mix of gantries and posts, as per your photographs, solves a problem with signal positioning, so thanks again for that.

 

Now to source some affordable signals. Any ideas?

 

I suggest ebay might be your best bet, search on 'signaux HO' or 'signalisation echelle Ho' or similar

 

shop eg: 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/letrainelectronique

 

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

I have now had time to look through my Lyon St Paul shots. I visited the Ouest Lyonnais network a few years ago with the specific aim of seeing the once a week rail greasing train that needed an X2800 railcar (I can't remember exactly but the X2800s had some sort of fitment that greased rails which the Caravelle DMUs didn't have.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

 

Yours truly at the helm of  X2819!!

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Gordonwis

[Wagonmaster]

I quite fancied using a 'route indicator' on the station throat signal to show which platform the train was routed to. I was thinking of the horizontal row of lights that are used placed above the signal head. Would this be appropriate? If it is, then some guidance on how it displays would be appreciated.

 

I only have three routes, so a three light indicator reading left to right would work. I have a working virtual indicator on my JMRI panel. I'm assuming it is off when a double red is shown. Does it come on with a single red or only with a yellow and green? Would it come on with a shunt move?

 

Thanks

[Pacific231G]

I can't find any reference to direction indicators being used as platform indicators. 

They're usually used at   junctions where the normal ralentissement signal for the diverging route isn't enough to indicate to the driver which line they're being routed to, either because at a simple junction both routes are speed restricted or because there are three possible routes.  Where they are used, the lights are illuminated progressively from left to right so, for a three way junction, 1 lunar white light means the left most route, two means the next route from the left and all three lit means the rightmost route. In principal I suppose you could have more than three routes but I've not ever seen this. 

 

 

[Wagonmaster]

4 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I can't find any reference to direction indicators being used as platform indicators. 

They're usually used at   junctions where the normal ralentissement signal for the diverging route isn't enough to indicate to the driver which line they're being routed to, either because at a simple junction both routes are speed restricted or because there are three possible routes.  Where they are used, the lights are illuminated progressively from left to right so, for a three way junction, 1 lunar white light means the left most route, two means the next route from the left and all three lit means the rightmost route. In principal I suppose you could have more than three routes but I've not ever seen this. 

 

 

Thanks for that, I didn't know if they may be used in that instance.

 

I have seen numerous diagrams illustrating up to six lights. Disc Rouge sell a five light version, so presumably based on something?

[Pacific231G]

You may find some inspiration from this thread on the Loco-Revue e-train forum, a fairly close French equivalent to RMweb

I've linked to a page with a plan of the layout (about half way down) but the whole topic is well worth exploring.

https://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=74784&hilit=Saumur&start=60

Jaques Boileau has used mechanical signalling but the aspects can be the same for lumineux.

This is the link to his later plan that shows all the signals

https://forum.e-train.fr/download/file.php?id=729368&mode=view

and the page it is on goes on to look at the signalling in more detail

https://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=74784&p=2474758&hilit=signal#p2474758

Edited March 5, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for that David, interesting thread and good to see how the French model their railways. I find it ironic that even the French struggle with their signalling!

 

I have set up a test rig to see if I can control and display the aspects correctly. None of the options in JMRI seemed to work correctly with my equipment (turnout controlled etc.). So I came up with another way that seems to work. I have populated a bit of stripboard with LED's representing a 4 aspect sugnal. This is connected to a MERG  Steady State Accessory dcc decoder (acc5). I've configured it to dual address mode so I have eight switchable outputs.  The signals on the panel are virtual signals and a short bit of LogixNG looks at the virtual signal aspect and switches the decoder outputs accordingly.

 

There are probably other ways of doing it, but I had the decoders left over from a previous project and it seemed sense to use them.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Wagonmaster
Typo

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

Thanks for that David, interesting thread and good to see how the French model their railways. I find it ironic that even the French struggle with their signalling!

 

I have set up a test rig to see if I can control and display the aspects correctly. None of the options in JMRI seemed to work correctly with my equipment (turnout controlled etc.). So I came up with another way that seems to work. I have populated a bit of stripboard with LED's representing a 4 aspect sugnal. Yhis is connected to a MERG  Steady State Accessory dcc decoder (acc5). I've configured it to dual address mode so I have eight switchable outputs.  The signals on the panel are virtual signals and a short bit of LogixNG looks at the virtual signal aspect and switches the decoder outputs accordingly.

 

There are probably other ways of doing it, but I had the decoders left over from a previous project and it seemed sense to use them.

French signalling is simple enough at the sharp end (i.e. for the driver and station staff to understand) and one of the aims of the 1923 Code Verlant (on which, with a few additional aspects for CLS, French signalling is still based)  was to reduce the number of signals to the minimum required in any situation. So, the actual design of signalling installations seems to involve a lot more variation than in the UK. There are also different "regimes" for different levels of traffic rather than the traditional British one-fits-all-approach  where a quiet country branch line  required permanently manned signalboxes and the whole suite of starters and advanced starters etc. at every station that was more than a halt.

I have now found the Loco-Revue Hors-Serie that Gordon referred  to and it does cover rather more ground, especially about single track lines, than their book on signalling. 

If you want to go into it in greater depth I'd suggest joining the French Railways Society whose members have collectively a wealth of knowledge and also get hold of the Signalling Record Society's 1995 paper no. 13 "An Introduction to French Signalling" by Richard Lemon (a long standing FRS member)

Edited March 20, 2023 by Pacific231G

[phil-b259]

28 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

...rather than the traditional British one-fits-all-approach  where a quiet country branch line  required permanently manned signalboxes and the whole suite of starters and advanced starters etc. at every station that was more than a halt.

 

 

Advanced starters and suchlike were in fact a rarity on UK branch lines!

 

Modern perception is skewed by the Heritage Railway movement because where such branch lines have been preserved the number of trains and the way they are operated differs greatly from when the lines were operated as part of the national rail system and that in turn generally requires a lot more signals than was historically the case.

 

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Advanced starters and suchlike were in fact a rarity on UK branch lines!

 

Modern perception is skewed by the Heritage Railway movement because where such branch lines have been preserved the number of trains and the way they are operated differs greatly from when the lines were operated as part of the national rail system and that in turn generally requires a lot more signals than was historically the case.

 

That's probably true and full signalling is maybe part of the heritage experience but I'm looking through a few GW branch line stations in the OPC books and haven't found one yet that didn't have both a starter and an advanced starter in each direction.

Wheatley (on the relatively quiet Princes Risborough-Oxford branch) faced a driver in the up direction with a fixed distant, up main home, up main inner home, up main starter and up advanced starter. I count a total of thirteen signal arms for a station with a passing loop and small goods yard.

St.Ives- a terminus of course with a total of just seven points (and three traps) offered departing drivers an up main starter, an up main intermediate starter (with an up main to shed road starter), and an advanced starter with a shunting arm.

Buckfastleigh (in GWR days)  had a starter (main and loop) and advanced starter for both up and down departures. 

All three stations also had a full suite of shunting disks. 

I don't know if the GWR was particularly keen on creating work for its signal workshop in Swindon and I'm not getting into a discussion about which country's signalling system was best, their situations and signalling philosophies were rather different (though the French system also developed from early British signalling),  but the fact is that the regimes used in France required far fewer signals and, at quieter stations, rarely required dedicated signalling staff.  

Edited March 20, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for that David, interesting thread and good to see how the French model their railways. I find it ironic that even the French struggle with their signalling!

 

I have set up a test rig to see if I can control and display the aspects correctly. None of the options in JMRI seemed to work correctly with my equipment (turnout controlled etc.). So I came up with another way that seems to work. I have populated a bit of stripboard with LED's representing a 4 aspect sugnal. Yhis is connected to a MERG  Steady State Accessory dcc decoder (acc5). I've configured it to dual address mode so I have eight switchable outputs.  The signals on the panel are virtual signals and a short bit of LogixNG looks at the virtual signal aspect and switches the decoder outputs accordingly.

 

There are probably other ways of doing it, but I had the decoders left over from a previous project and it seemed sense to use them.

[Wagonmaster]

Oddly enough, I am a member of the French Railways Society!

 

I think the Great Western Railway was particularly obsessed with signalling with virtually a signal for every move. Did many other companies have Backing Up, or Shunt Ahead signals? Other companies seemed to be a bit more restained. The Heritage Railway case is slightly different I feel as it gives signalling enthusiasts an opportunity to install and operate a wide variety of signals that may not have been originally installed.

 

I think this is where my uncertainty with French signalling comes from as my other layout is a fully signalled ex-GWR layout!