GWR cabside number plates

[Lissadell]

Apologies to start with - I’m sure this question will have been asked before. 
 

But having searched for the answer across the web, I’ve been unsuccessful. So ……….

 

Could I please ask what is the length x width of a cabside numberplate?  
I don’t know if they changed over time, but I’m thinking of the plates carried in the post war years ie 40s to 60s

 

I ‘d be interested to learn the dimensions of a full size item in ft and inches (or metric equivalent!)

 

Thank you

 

Adrian

 

PS my location does not provide an easy opportunity to visit one of the preserved lines for this information.

[JimC]

According to a drawing in Great Western Way, 2'1.25in * 11.75in, but 1, 2 and 3 digit ones were narrower. I think that's over the polished brass outline rather than the actual edge of the plate though.

Edited March 6, 2023 by JimC

[Miss Prism]

Dimensions are over the edges of the plate.

[Lissadell]

Sorry, Miss Prism, just to clarify, would you add to the dimensions Jim gave?

 

what dimensions do you have please?

 

thanks

 

Adrian

[Miss Prism]

Jim's dimensions are correct, and apply to the overall dimensions, i.e. over the edges of the plate. I'll do a version of the drawing for gwr.org.uk in due course.

[Hal Nail]

An extension to this, are the smokebox plates standard? I feel a few of the proprietary ones on offer are undernourished but never had the dimensions to prove it.

[Miss Prism]

There seem to be slight differences in perimeter area and corner style in BR smokebox number plates. BR(W) ones have rounded corners. I assume there should be a (Swindon) drawing somewhere for the WR plates, but I can't recall seeing one.

 

Ah, there is an RMweb thread - of course!

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/128301-varieties-of-br-smokebox-number-plates/

 

[Lissadell]

My current interest in plate dimensions relates to me wanting to renumber a 7mm scale Dapol Pannier.

 

When I did this job on the Collett 0.4.2 from the same manufacturer,  I found that plates had been prepared by Narrow Planet that were adjusted from their standard size plates to suit the moulded rectangle that Dapol created on the cab side.

 

I must admit I don’t recall how the originals were located, probably because I was very nervously attacking the edge of the plate with a scalpel to “flick” it free!!!

However, I seem to recall the replacement parts sat down inside the moulded rectangle ………

 

When I came to do the same job on the Pannier (5717) I did take careful note of how Dapol located their plates.

 

They were sitting on the raised moulded rectangle, not within it.

 

However, when I approached Narrow Planet I was advised to purchase the “adjusted for Dapol” version, rather than the “suits Minerva” standard size version.  
I checked some “adjusted” plates a friend had had and they sit within, not on, the moulding.

 

So I thought, if I knew what size a “standard” plate was, maybe I should order the “Minerva version” and it would fit the same as the Dapol plates I’’m replacing.

 

Of course all this is influenced by Dapol’s interpretation of a standard size GWR cab side plate……………..

 

Sorry for the saga!   Interesting though Hal, after we exchanged messages the other week.

 

Adrian

[Happy Hippo]

If you are going to renumber a Dapol Pannier, the edge of the cab side plate is a moulding on the side sheet and Dapol then fit a smaller plate into the moulded surround.

 

If you use Light Railway Stores (Used to be Narrow Planet)  they make them to order and to fit the recess in the Dapol loco.

 

https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/products/NPP-431

[JimC]

Hopefully this is to scale 1 mm to 1 inch and will work for people. 
I've worked it up mainly from railwayana photos. The narrower plates are estimated widths from the photos.

GWRcabsidenumerals.svg

Edited March 9, 2023 by JimC

[Hal Nail]

On 08/03/2023 at 20:21, Happy Hippo said:

If you use Light Railway Stores (Used to be Narrow Planet)  they make them to order and to fit the recess in the Dapol loco.

 

https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/products/NPP-431

the NP "Dapol" plates were designed for the 14xx and are different to the surround on the pannier. The pannier surround is taller than the 14xx. The standard NP plates are a better fit for height on a pannier but are not as wide as Dapols so worse for width. Its 6 and 2 threes!  

 

 @Lissadell the real number plates had a surround so you do want that to show. I'm obviously not going to take my plates back off now but the 5717 do look a shade bigger than the surround - although my recollection was they sat very snugly inside it, perhaps they were sat slightly on top.

 

pics are pretty clear. Dapol 57 plate is a lot taller than the 14/58xx and a standard sized NP on a pannier.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

5 hours ago, JimC said:

Hopefully this is to scale 1 mm to 1 inch and will work for people. 
I've worked it up mainly from railwayana photos. The narrower plates are estimated widths from the photos.

GWRcabsidenumerals.svg 452 B · 19 downloads

 

svg is unknown file type to me. I converted it to png, but it still doesn't make sense.

 

[Krusty]

SVG stands for Scalable Vector Graphics and is a web standard. To open it you would need an illustration app such as Illustrator, Affinity Designer, Inkscape, etc.

[tanatvalley]

The dimensions quoted are for brass number plates. I believe cast iron ones are different and measure 2ft 1.5in. by 11.75in.!

[JimC]

Yep, its a vector drawing. Most use if drawing your own plates. I've got reasonable outlines of all the numerals on there.

Alan, that's a useful observation and probably  explains some inconsistencies I was seeing scaling from the photos on the Railwayana site . Do you have any of the other dimensions for iron plates? 
I'll look at working up a dimensioned jpg.

 

 

[tanatvalley]

The height is the same as the brass plate, 11.75in. Also the position of the 4 keyed fixing holes are the same for brass and cast iron.

[JimC]

8 hours ago, tanatvalley said:

The height is the same as the brass plate, 11.75in. Also the position of the 4 keyed fixing holes are the same for brass and cast iron.

So the end screws are slightly further from the edge of the cast iron plates than the brass ones? Was the raised border the same distance from the edge on both?

 

[tanatvalley]

16 hours ago, JimC said:

So the end screws are slightly further from the edge of the cast iron plates than the brass ones?

 

Was the raised border the same distance from the edge on both?

 

 Yes.

 

Seems to be, see https://www.gwra.co.uk/auctions/bycategory/13/53/Cabside-Numberplates.html

[JimC]

2 hours ago, tanatvalley said:

 See https://www.gwra.co.uk/auctions/bycategory/13/53/Cabside-Numberplates.html

Yeah, I tried scaling off those, but there's just enough camera distortion that I didn't think it reliable enough. 

 

Trivia. In general three figure plates all seem to be a standard width (unsure whether iron different as per 4 figure), also probably two figure, although not many of those to work from. But 111 appears to have had her own no-standard width cabside. 

[Hal Nail]

This might be of interest to 7mm modellers

 

5819 Dapol

5717 Dapol (same width as 5819, much taller)

5523 Narrow Planet Standard (slightly taller than 5819 but not as wide)

5521 Severn Mill

 

The quality of the numbers is good on all of them for me and the relative size isnt as apparent on a loco, except where there is a moulded surround obviously! 

 

 

[JimC]

This is what I've sketched up from the drawing in GWW and information above. Dimensions in inches. No guarantees its correct and any required corrections welcome. It would be interesting to have widths for 1, 2 and 3 digit plates.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by JimC

[The Great Bear]

On 12/03/2023 at 22:00, JimC said:

This is what I've sketched up from the drawing in GWW and information above. Dimensions in inches. No guarantees its correct and any required corrections welcome. It would be interesting to have widths for 1, 2 and 3 digit plates.

What's the significance of the two sets of width measurements, Jim, not that in 4mm it will make a discernible difference, just curious. (Trying to compare against a proof of a plate I've got from Light Railway Stores.)

Edited February 4 by The Great Bear

[JimC]

5 hours ago, The Great Bear said:

What's the significance of the two sets of width measurements, Jim,

Cast iron and brass plates (see above in thread for details).

[Penrhos1920]

On 12/03/2023 at 22:00, JimC said:

This is what I've sketched up from the drawing in GWW and information above. Dimensions in inches. No guarantees its correct and any required corrections welcome. It would be interesting to have widths for 1, 2 and 3 digit plates.

 

 

How wide were 5 digit numberplates?  Eg the shunter 15105

Edited February 4 by Penrhos1920

[JimC]

12 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

How wide were 5 digit numberplates?  Eg the shunter 15105

Good question! I've never seen a answer. Anyone?

If someone knows of a really square on photo as per Railwayana sales websites and can point me at it I could try measuring it up.