How long did private owner liveries survive nationalisation?

[GWR-fan]

Post-nationalisation with goods waggons being designated "P" numbering how long would the actual livery of the waggon have survived, please?  Were they painted over or left to deteriorate or until BR refurburbishment or condemming?  Basically,  would a private owner "livery" have been seen in a BR rake of waggons?

[Hal Nail]

 

[Hal Nail]

 

[Hal Nail]

 

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks, interesting links.

[The Johnster]

Because of the continuing ‘austerity’ economy, which was in force for another five years after BR’s inception in 1948 and more severe in it’s restrictions than it had been during the war (the nation was fundamentally bankrupt and  exports were vigorously promoted and encouraged to ease the huge balance of payments deficit), supplies of paint to the home market were restricted until 1953.  In view of this, BR instructed wagon repair workshops that unfitted wooden bodied open wagons were not have the wooden planks painted at all.  
 

This meant, so far as XPO wooden wagons were concerned, that they remained in whatever livery they had been left in in 1937, when they had originally been pooled by the RCH and the owners compensated for their loss.  Coal wagons in particular spent their lives in an especially dirty environment, and the liveries became increasingly faded and dirty over time.  My layout is set in the 1948-58 period and I model such wagons with heavily weathered liveries and P prefix numbers, available on a transfer sheet from our own John Isherwood’s Cambridge Custom range.  

Unfitted wooden wagons begsn to recieve the grey livery in the late 50s, but not apparently at all workshops at the same time, and in any case the XPOs were being scrapped in large numbers by then.  The last ones in service probably disappeared in the mid-60s, and some probably soldiered on to the end with the faded remains of their 1937 liveries barely visible under a layer of grime and coal dust.  A frequent sight was replacement planks, unpainted or sometimes taken from a withdrawn wagon in a different faded filthy livery.  There was no rule requiring such replacement planks to be the right way up or the right way round…

 

Of our RTR manufacturers, only Bachmann produce wagons in this condition, remnant PO liveries with BR ‘P’ numbers.  One might acquire an impression from looking at RTR catalogues that grey painted unfitted wooden XPOs, and indeed unfitted wooden open wagons as a whole, were a lot more common than they ever actually were, because by the time the process of repainting them in grey livery was properly under way, a combination of falling traffic levels and, for the general merchandise opens, volume refurbishment into fitted ‘XP’ condition in bauxite livery, led to the survivors being scrapped at an exponentially faster rate over time. 
 

Grey painted unfitted wooden bodied vans were a lot more common at least up to the later 50s, having been eligible for the livery from the outset, but as the older ones were culled out and later builds refurbished as fitted ‘XP’ spec vehicles, these too became increasingly rare beasts by the 60s. 

 

[The Johnster]

1 minute ago, The Johnster said:

Because of the continuing ‘austerity’ economy, which was in force for another five years after BR’s inception in 1948 and more severe in it’s restrictions than it had been during the war (the nation was fundamentally bankrupt and  exports were vigorously promoted and encouraged to ease the huge balance of payments deficit), supplies of paint to the home market were restricted until 1953.  In view of this, BR instructed wagon repair workshops that unfitted wooden bodied open wagons were not have the wooden planks painted at all.  
 

This meant, so far as XPO wooden wagons were concerned, that they remained in whatever livery they had been left in in 1937, when they had originally been pooled by the RCH and the owners compensated for their loss.  Coal wagons in particular spent their lives in an especially dirty environment, and the liveries became increasingly faded and dirty over time.  My layout is set in the 1948-58 period and I model such wagons with heavily weathered liveries and P prefix numbers, available on a transfer sheet from our own John Isherwood’s Cambridge Custom range.  

Unfitted wooden wagons begsn to recieve the grey livery in the late 50s, but not apparently at all workshops at the same time, and in any case the XPOs were being scrapped in large numbers by then.  The last ones in service probably disappeared in the mid-60s, and some probably soldiered on to the end with the faded remains of their 1937 liveries barely visible under a layer of grime and coal dust.  A frequent sight was replacement planks, unpainted or sometimes taken from a withdrawn wagon in a different faded filthy livery.  There was no rule requiring such replacement planks to be the right way up or the right way round…

 

Of our RTR manufacturers, only Bachmann produce wagons in this condition, remnant PO liveries with BR ‘P’ numbers.  One might acquire an impression from looking at RTR catalogues that grey painted unfitted wooden XPOs, and indeed unfitted wooden open wagons as a whole, were a lot more common than they ever actually were, because by the time the process of repainting them in grey livery was properly under way, a combination of falling traffic levels and, for the general merchandise opens, volume refurbishment into fitted ‘XP’ condition in bauxite livery, led to the survivors being scrapped at an exponentially faster rate over time.  The loss of traffic post-Beeching finished them off altogether. 
 

Grey painted unfitted wooden bodied vans were a lot more common at least up to the later 50s, having been eligible for the livery from the outset, but as the older ones were culled out and later builds refurbished as fitted ‘XP’ spec vehicles, these too became increasingly rare beasts by the 60s, and, again, Beeching effectively killed off any survivors.  

 

 

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks,  so a pristine livery is a bridge too far but perhaps a weathered/faded livery is more acceptable in the immediate post-war period.  

[wagonbasher]

The layout New Haden Colliery now owned by Geoff Cooke used to attend shows with an early to mid 50’s period of operation and had and needed a significant number of coal wagons.  We would operate a mix of 16 ton minerals in various states many as new but also ex PO wagons and tried to capture 15 years of essential maintenance only.  To get the mix right we looked at as many photographs of coal trains as possible counting the steels and the wooden bodied wagons seeing what sort of ratio operated at each period.

 

On the specifics for the OP’s question and subsequent clarification, yes you could just fade down the livery of your PO wagon it is not inconceivable that it survived as is until very early BR period.

 

however, it will need some mods.  The black square panel with its PO fleet number (just guess that, the records of what number was allocated to what wagon is lost, so find a picture of a PO wagon and add one to its fleet number).  It will need its tare weight adding.  If the wagon has an end opening door it will need a white stripe running at 45 degrees, they often painted the strap.  If it has bottom doors in the floor it will need two small white stripes on the side door pointing down.

 

There are some images on the net, more in books.

 

if you type Coal Wagon P306714 into google images you will see Acton Hall Colliery 6 plank wagon.

see the ‘P’ prefixed fleet number and 12 T capacity.  Note painted directly onto the old livery without a black panel.  See also the painted white strip on the strap denoting the end door, the tare weight to the right and the two angled white stripes showing it has bottom doors in the floor. The old livery is very faded and the top plank on the side door has been replaced and possibly some of the side planks to the left of the door.  Managed to get a link

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FSalopianLyne%2Fstatus%2F1152298500253786118&psig=AOvVaw0tfLiIVDRu4gBUTW_x4tOA&ust=1681544091532000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CBAQjRxqFwoTCPi_loXuqP4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE

 

A glass fibre brush used on the models lettering along the plank (in the direction of the wood grain) will help give you the faded look.

 

Andy

 

 

[Hal Nail]

I do some volunteering restoring wagons on a preserved railway and we've just repainted a colliery wagon. A couple of months later, it already looks a bit faded and the paint is starting to wear, soak in, flake and blister in places - and that hasn't even moved. Imagine 20 odd years of use and typical weather and of those that survived without a repaint, I doubt many would be much more than dark silvery grey bare wood after 20 years outside.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Hal Nail

[wagonbasher]

I often wonder if modern paint have the longevity of the 'lead' based paints of yesteryear.   You know how you occasionally see some ancient painted advert on the side of a building, all faded but still there maybe 100 years later.  Would todays acrylic pant survive 100 years?

 

Andy