More help, please...

[G-man69]

Hi all,

 

I am trying to work out sizes etc for another small (A4 size) 00 diorama.  I'm imagining a WW2 era city/town scape, a partial row of Victorian terraced houses, road passing under a railway bridge.  There will be a partial embankment and retaining wall (see rough sketch below (Plan 01)).

 

 

The partial bridge will be scratch built and will be a steel through girder type, which I think would be okay for WW2?

 

I'm trying to find details of the supporting Buttress and Wing walls (not sure of the exact terminology, but have provided a rough sketch below (Buttress 01) showing the information I'm trying to find.

 

 

If anyone can help, or point me in the right direction I would be grateful.

 

Cheers, G

 

p.s.

 

Below are a couple of images of a scratch built ruined barn and packhorse bridge in 00 scale that I'm currently working on, should anyone be interested.  They're both DAS over foamboard.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by G-man69

[The Johnster]

If you are capable of modelling to that standard, I for one could not possibly help you; the barn interior especially is nothing short of brilliant!

[Nick Holliday]

On 14/04/2023 at 17:01, G-man69 said:

Hi all,

 

I am trying to work out sizes etc for another small (A4 size) 00 diorama.  I'm imagining a WW2 era city/town scape, a partial row of Victorian terraced houses, road passing under a railway bridge.  There will be a partial embankment and retaining wall (see rough sketch below (Plan 01)).

 

 

The partial bridge will be scratch built and will be a steel through girder type, which I think would be okay for WW2?

 

I'm trying to find details of the supporting Buttress and Wing walls (not sure of the exact terminology, but have provided a rough sketch below (Buttress 01) showing the information I'm trying to find.

 

 

If anyone can help, or point me in the right direction I would be grateful.

 

Cheers, G

 

I think the word you are after is abutment. There was a book called Bridges for Modellers or something similar, but I don’t know how easy it is to find.

Since most railway infrastructure dated from the nineteenth century, I’m not sure of the relevance of your reference to WW2. I believe you are overthinking the construction techniques that would have been used. The brick abutments would probably have been given a concrete capping beam, which may have included steel plates to allow a degree of movement for the steel girder, not the elaborate antivibration mountings now commonplace. I don’t think there would have been standard dimensions for the bearing depth, as it would depend on a number of design factors. Similarly there wouldn’t have been any fixed minima that you enquire about, apart from wing walls being vertical or sloping, and any pilaster detail would be an optional architectural detail. You might find some useful details from this photo, or others on that website.
https://imageleicestershire.org.uk/view-item?key=T3siUCI6eyJ0eXBlIjoxLCJpZHMiOlszNl19fQ&pg=1682&WINID=1681632938462&fullPage=1#DT6zzpB-jCEAAAGHiSJIdQ/10680

Regarding the rest of your plans, I would suggest that, whilst the end wall of your terrace would probably follow the line of the footpath but the rest of the terrace would be build square to the road, and the chimney wouldn’t have been lozenge shaped, also the rear extensions.

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[eastglosmog]

The book Nick recommends is "Bridges for Modellers" by L. V. Wood OPC 1985, ISBN 0-86093-226-5.  I also recommend it, contains lots of useful detail and dimensions.  Should be available at your local library by inter-library loan.  As Nick says, there are an awful lot of variations out there, and different companies often had their own styles.  Sizes varied greatly according to how wide the span was and how heavy the locomotives were that were using the bridge.  Many bridges were extensively rebuilt to take heavier locomotives.  Best thing to do is to go out and look at as many plate girder bridges as you can.  Example below is over the River Avon on the OWW at Evesham, and has been extensively rebuilt by the GWR and BR from the original.  It has at least 3 generations of brick in it, plus the original stonework (only visible in the wing walls).  You can work out how deep the girders are, how high the Pilaster is and how deep the bearing pad step is by counting the bricks.  A oddity of this bridge is that the abutment level for the bearing pads steps down across the width of the bridge and is lower for the up line than the down line.

The abutment face towards the River Avon is vertical, but the sides are at varying batters, that are steeper in the upper level.

PS I agree with Nick regarding the plan of the terraced houses - the buildings will be square to the road, even if the end wall is not at a right angle.

PPS Also agree with The Johnster regarding the standard of your modelling!

[G-man69]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond in both a supportive way regarding my specific question, and the flattering comments regarding the barn (a couple more images of the rest of the interior below), it's much appreciated,🙂.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My apologies, about the 'house' outline, it was the quickest and easiest way of trying to represent my initial layout thoughts,😕.

 

Thanks for the heads-up on the book, I've ordered a second-hand copy off of the internet.

 

I'll post some images once it

 

Thanks again, and cheers,🍺,

 

G

[G-man69]

Hi all,

 

For those of you that followed this topic I promised I'd send some updates.

 

I have based the bridge, maybe loosely,🙄, on various bridges shown in the book "Bridges for Modellers" by L. V. Wood, that was kindly recommended to me above.

 

The partial bridge is scratch-built from various bits of plastic sheet/profiles.  The rivets aren't accurate, but are simply to give an impression of detail, they were made by cutting strips of thin plastic sheet in to which I pressed a rounded head piece of metal.  The overall size was estimated from various bits of information given in the book, but as there were no specific dimensions for given bridges they may not be anywhere close to accurate,🤔.

 

The buttress wall is, again, is scratch-built, with each brick being scribed/embossed on old greeting cards, each brick is approximately 1mmx3mm...it was slow going,🙁.

 

 

 

 

 

It's nowhere near finished, each element, bridge, track bed, buttress are all separate so I can work on them, but please feel free to comment, positively or negatively, you're the experts, so your feedback would be acted upon, where possible.

 

This brings me to another question...what type of, if any, infrastructure would have run adjacent to the track in the 1940s,🤔...

 

Would there have been cabling, e.g. for signalling and/or points, and if so would it have been exposed or in trunking above or below ground, and...

 

If cabling was involved how would it have crossed the bridge?

 

Apart from signals (which I'm not sure I'll introduce) what else might be located alongside a small stretch of rail leading up to a bridge?

 

I'm quite happy to post more images if that might help with anyone's feedback, but I didn't want to bore anyone, also, there's a size limit,🙂.

 

Any, and all feedback will be appreciated.

 

Thanks for reading, and cheers,

 

G

[SHMD]

21 minutes ago, G-man69 said:

Hi all,

 

For those of you that followed this topic I promised I'd send some updates.

 

I have based the bridge, maybe loosely,🙄, on various bridges shown in the book "Bridges for Modellers" by L. V. Wood, that was kindly recommended to me above.

 

The partial bridge is scratch-built from various bits of plastic sheet/profiles.  The rivets aren't accurate, but are simply to give an impression of detail, they were made by cutting strips of thin plastic sheet in to which I pressed a rounded head piece of metal.  The overall size was estimated from various bits of information given in the book, but as there were no specific dimensions for given bridges they may not be anywhere close to accurate,🤔.

 

The buttress wall is, again, is scratch-built, with each brick being scribed/embossed on old greeting cards, each brick is approximately 1mmx3mm...it was slow going,🙁.

 

 

 

 

 

It's nowhere near finished, each element, bridge, track bed, buttress are all separate so I can work on them, but please feel free to comment, positively or negatively, you're the experts, so your feedback would be acted upon, where possible.

 

This brings me to another question...what type of, if any, infrastructure would have run adjacent to the track in the 1940s,🤔...

 

Would there have been cabling, e.g. for signalling and/or points, and if so would it have been exposed or in trunking above or below ground, and...

 

If cabling was involved how would it have crossed the bridge?

 

Apart from signals (which I'm not sure I'll introduce) what else might be located alongside a small stretch of rail leading up to a bridge?

 

I'm quite happy to post more images if that might help with anyone's feedback, but I didn't want to bore anyone, also, there's a size limit,🙂.

 

Any, and all feedback will be appreciated.

 

Thanks for reading, and cheers,

 

G

 

"It's nowhere near finished...." !!!

 

That's a zillion years beyond anything I will ever achieve - though, I am thoroughly inspired.

 

"what else might be located alongside" - how about something discarded lineside? Something that would have been common during the time period depikted.

 

 

Truly wonderful stuff - please keep posting.

 

 

Kev.

 

[eastglosmog]

Just a thought, but if you are modelling 1940s, as I am, then depending on where your model is located a pill box or two might be in order.  Also if getting super detailed, pockets for demolition explosives.

[G-man69]

Thanks to Kev and Alan for their feedback, I had toyed with the idea of a pillbox as I had one going spare from a previous build, it was scratch built, but I wasn't happy with it, so discarded it.  However, as this latest diorama is meant to be set in a town/city I thought a pillbox would be unlikely,🤔.

 

 

Instead I just created general clutter for the area.

 

 

I never finished the above as I became bored with it, but maybe, one day, I'll return to it,🙂.

 

Thanks again chaps,

 

G, 🍺

[The Johnster]

I also have fish food containers around the layout (and everywhere else in the flat)!  55litre tank with yoyo loach, Harlequins, and varying amounts of Mollies, blacks and 'tuxedo', according to how many of the latest brood I keep.  Also four fat goldfish in a fibreglass planter out on the patio.  I'm Pisces, which might explain that side of it, but fishes and little electric trains have been a consistant element in my life, from early childhood.

 

Pillboxes were to be found in urban environments, and railway bridges were likely spots for them, as the embankent would be a line that could be defended.  They would be probably more likely to have been demolished in towns after the war, though, rather than the rural ones which were left to rot.

[cliff park]

The reason that pillboxes were often found near railway lines was that the Germans were very fond of using the lines to drive tanks along. Bridges, embankments and so on were virtually guaranteed to be strong enough and the right size to take a tank. So railway lines were often defended at strategic points by pill boxes or spigot guns . I live near a long abandoned railway line and there is a spigot gun base about 30' from my front door.

[G-man69]

Thanks to everyone above for their kind words and/or suggestions, as always it's much appreciated,🙂.

 

Cheers,🍺

 

G

[G-man69]

Hi all,

 

For various reasons progress is a tad slow on this build, but thought I owed a big thank you to 'eastglosmog' for his suggestion of adding a pillbox for added interest to the railway bridge embankment scene.

 

Initially I cobbled together something from old card that was meant to represent a Type 24 pillbox, but it didn't sit comfortably due to the size, I'll have to find another use for it in another diorama, 🙄🙁.

 

 

 

So instead, I cobbled together from card something to represent a Type 26, being smaller I think it might work,

 

 

I then found an image that showed a Type 26 camouflaged as a Platelayers Hut.  It looked as if it had been clad in old timber railway sleepers, and had a dummy chimney mounted on top.  I also found a picture of a brick built variant where the embrasure was almost at track level, so it's going to be recessed slightly into the embankment so I've created some steps to allow access.

 

 

 

 

 

So thanks to 'eastglosmog' for his suggestion,🙂.

 

Another question, I like the look of the concrete cabling trunking shown in the image below, especially where the cables are shown bridging a missing section.  Would this type have been used back in the 1940s?  If not, how was cabling carried alongside track, and how would it have been carried over the bridge?

 

 

Any help you chaps can provide would be greatly appreciated,🙂.

 

Cheers, 🍺,

 

G

[SHMD]

Signal cables would have been strung up between telegraph poles up until the 70s - ish (very much depends on location).

Traction cables (think southern third rail but others also existed) would have been earlier and too thick to string up between poles, but I was brought up in the North-West of England and never saw cable runs, in the cess, until after the mid 70s.

 

As  for the trunking contents, in 4mm scale, they would appear very very thin - much less than 0.25mm... ...and all would be black.

 

To be sure - refer to photos of your desired location.

 

 

Kev.

[G-man69]

Hi all,

 

Progress has been slow on this one due to various 'real-world' events impacting on my time, but thought I'd post some images of the finished camouflaged pillbox.

 

 

 

 

 

And, although taken prior to the groundwork being done, the next few images hopefully give an impression of how it will sit within the completed diorama, 🤔.

 

 

 

Any and all feedback greatly appreciated as you chaps are the experts in all things 'railway'.

 

Thanks, and cheers, 🍺.

 

G