Barnstaple Junction station working

[Railpassion]

Hello,

Barnstaple Junction was a much loved station on its heyday. There's some wonderful photos, particularly of the 60s on the Internet etc.

The very cramped conditions at the west end with no less than 5 diamonds in a short space is a challenge to model. 

 

The track layout here at srs signal

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srq/S3517.htm

Is intriguing. Two down platforms for the two routes, Torrington and Ilfracombe and one up platform for Exeter and sometimes Victoria Rd or Taunton on the GWR. The unusual feature is the middle siding. Was its original purpose to allow an ex- Torrington goods to layover whilst a passenger used the up platform? When the Atlantic Coast Express combined the Torrington and Ilfracombe portions to go forward, did the Torrington portion run through the middle and platform at the starter end before shunting back onto the stock in the up platform?

 

Does anyone know what the practice was? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Railpassion
Correcting Town to Victoria Rd

[The Stationmaster]

Well it isn't mentioned anywhere in any geenrally published instructions between the mid 1930s and 1968 - and it ceased to be through siding in 1971.   It was not listed in SR days as a siding where trains could be shunted (i.e for regulating purposes).  So it was, as its name implies, always a siding.

 

So despite the way it was signalled at Barnstaple Jcn West it was not regarded as a loop line or listed as such in the 1960s although movements were signalled on a block bell and 'Control levers' were provided at both the East and West Signal Boxes.  This on its own, apart from the various fixed signals, makes it obvious that it was arranged for movements to be made into it from either end and out of it at either end - mostly as shunting movements according to the various signals.

 

Its position suggests that it was conveniently sited to deal with vehicles detached from through trains - a common use for middle sidings - although the signalling indicates that a freight off the Bidefore line could be admitted to it.  Alas there appears to be no locking chart published on the SRS site so  what can't be confirmed is the purpose of No.30 ground disc at the West 'box although it was probably for a shunt towards the Up Main Line.

 

There might well have been more in both Local Instructions and the Signal Box Instructions but the chances of those coming to light are not too rosy

[Railpassion]

Thanks for your reply. That's helped to clear a few things up, as I haven't seen the sectional appendix.

It would a marvellous model to operate with plenty of variety. 

 

Yesterday, I found a Barnstaple A revised drawing from the 60s on sale on ebay. 

 

No connection to the seller.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353786486739

[Rivercider]

Regarding the working of the Atlantic Coast Express, and other services that combined at Barnstaple Junction,

I understand that Ilfracombe services took priority as that had been considered the main line since the 1930, (this reversed the priority as the Bideford/Torrington line was first to open).

I have read a couple of accounts of combining trains at Barnstaple Junction, and looking at the timetables I have it seems to have been standard practice.

The first arrival into the up platform would be the Torrington portion, generally worked by a tank loco, with through coaches for Waterloo next to the loco. 

The loco would uncouple and run-round to the rear, and once station work was complete draw the train back out onto the Torrington line.

Then the arrival from Ilfracombe ran into the up platform, normally worked by a WC BB or N class, which either worked through or was changed.

The Torrington loco now propels back into the up platform and the through coaches are attached to the rear of the Ilfracombe portion. The train is now complete to go forward to Exeter.

 

The summer 1956 timetable shows train times to support this working, with arrivals from Torrington about 10 minutes before the Ilfracombe portion.

 

Torrington dep 08.10, Barnstaple Junction  arr. 08.41

Ilfracombe dep 08.10, Barnstaple Junction arr. 08.51, & dep 08.54 

 

Torrington dep 10.30, Barnstaple Junction arr. 11.03.

Ilfracombe dep 10.30, Barnstaple Junction arr. 11.13  & dep 11.16.

 

Trains from Waterloo to Ilfracombe & Torrington show the same priority with the Ilfracombe portion away first.

 

Barnstaple Junction arr. 3.25pm dep 3.27pm to Ilfracombe. 

Barnstaple Junction dep 3.32pm to Torrington.

I assume the tank loco for Torrington with local coaches waits either in the down loop platform, or out on the Torrington single line, to back on to the Torrington portion once the Ilfracombe portion has got away.

Very smart station working in any event,

 

cheers 

 

[Railpassion]

Thanks.

Very smart work indeed, one more or less impossible on today's railway. 

 

I've seen a video of a tank in the down loop spur waiting to run onto the rear coaches once the Ilfracombe has left. 

 

There doesn't seem to be a backing signal from the up main for the Up manoeuvre, unless the ground signal applies both ways back along up main and to the Dock. 

 

 

[DLT]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Regarding the working of the Atlantic Coast Express, and other services that combined at Barnstaple Junction,

I understand that Ilfracombe services took priority as that had been considered the main line since the 1930, (this reversed the priority as the Bideford/Torrington line was first to open).

I have read a couple of accounts of combining trains at Barnstaple Junction, and looking at the timetables I have it seems to have been standard practice.

The first arrival into the up platform would be the Torrington portion, generally worked by a tank loco, with through coaches for Waterloo next to the loco. 

The loco would uncouple and run-round to the rear, and once station work was complete draw the train back out onto the Torrington line.

Then the arrival from Ilfracombe ran into the up platform, normally worked by a WC BB or N class, which either worked through or was changed.

The Torrington loco now propels back into the up platform and the through coaches are attached to the rear of the Ilfracombe portion. The train is now complete to go forward to Exeter.

 

That's much the same as the procedure at Halwill Junction, when the Bude portion would arrive first.

An old and now deceased friend would tell of childhood holidays to Bude.  On the return he and his dad would get out at Halwill, and wave goodbye to his horrified mum as the train apparently left without them.  And then greet her arrival as her carriage was propelled back in.  Did it every year....

Edited May 11, 2023 by DLT

[Innerhome]

Two books from Xpress publishing - may - or may not be of help.  "Operating British Railways History  Southern region Part 2" - suggests that Ilfracombe services arrived first into the up platform followed by Torrington - with the Torrington engine running round via the middle siding and then pushing the Torrington coaches onto the Ilfracombe.

District Controller's View no14 - North Devon - suggests Torrington in first - run round and draw back onto the Torrington branch - then Ilfracombe in and push onto the back - which would agree with Rivercider above. This book goes into more detail on the workings - there would appear to be a lot of coach and van shunting going on with the middle siding used to hold ECS and vans being switched between trains.

On the basis of the photographs I've seen and the timetable above I think Torrington in first and then draw back onto the branch was the normal way of working - but if the Torrington was very late let the Ilfracombe in and have it go right to the end of the Up platform.

Would certainly seem to have been a very interesting place to observe in it's heyday. The modelling downside is that the number of locomotive classes was fairly restricted - the GWR route being mainly 43xx (and nothing bigger - weight restrictions) - and the SR lines were maximum unrebuilt WC/BB. Of course rule number 1 can always be applied....

[Oldddudders]

28 minutes ago, DLT said:

That's much the same as the procedure at Halwill Junction, when the Bude portion would arrive first.

An old and now deceased friend would tell of childhood holidays to Bude.  On the return he and his dad would get out at Halwill, and wave goodbye to his horrified mum as the train apparently left without them.  And then greet her arrival as her carriage was propelled back in.  Did it every year....

My reason for choosing Halwill to model. It has a lot of operational interest. Since I tend to use N class 2-6-0s for the up Bude portion, they need front couplers to be able to perform the reverse move from the platform. Padstow locos, typically Bulleids, do not. 

[Railpassion]

Thanks for the enlightening replies. 

@Innerhome I've ordered a copy of No.14, I was unaware of the series, thanks for drawing it to my attention. 

 

Truly, Barnstaple was a railway haven with three stations and the L & B too. 

It beggars belief that so much was destroyed by savage closures. 

 

I remember my family going to Ilfracombe and not thinking it perverse to abandon the train for a coach for the last few miles. How did we come to tolerate such thinking as an acceptable public transport solution?

 

But that's another topic..  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VIA185]

[The Stationmaster]

Be very careful with stuff from that concern.  The quality is highly variable and one particular problem they seem to have is that you find that the timetable and diagrams are for different services which can get very puzzling until you tumble to what has been done.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Be very careful with stuff from that concern.  The quality is highly variable and one particular problem they seem to have is that you find that the timetable and diagrams are for different services which can get very puzzling until you tumble to what has been done.

ISTR one of the principals used to be SM at Herne Bay. I didn't feel he prospered in that role.

[Railpassion]

My copy arrived yesterday from Booklaw Publications in Nottingham. I feel it gives a good account of the complexity of working the traffic within the restrictions imposed by geography etc. 

 

It gives a full timetable for a summer Saturday and then train occupancy diagrams taking you through the day. 

 

All seems clear but one movement is not explained. (See pic 2)

Trains for Taunton/Torrington and vv are shown crossing but the up Taunton is standing at No2 on the down. There's no signalling for this direct move. Has the train run in on the Up and set back along No2? 

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

According to the SRS diagram linked to earlier, there's no route out of that platform on to the up Taunton line (no signal to control the movement, and no FPLs on the facing points), so even if it got there by setting back, it couldn't easily get out again. Perhaps the signalling was different at the period in question (I can see some operational sense in crossing Taunton-Torrington trains in the down platforms while an Ilfracombe-Waterloo express uses the up plaform, to give a full range of connections). Alternatively, the caption appears not to match the diagram, since it says the up train has a 43xx when the diagram shows an LM class 2 tank, so perhaps the diagram is wrong.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Jeremy Cumberland

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Railpassion said:

My copy arrived yesterday from Booklaw Publications in Nottingham. I feel it gives a good account of the complexity of working the traffic within the restrictions imposed by geography etc. 

 

It gives a full timetable for a summer Saturday and then train occupancy diagrams taking you through the day. 

 

All seems clear but one movement is not explained. (See pic 2)

Trains for Taunton/Torrington and vv are shown crossing but the up Taunton is standing at No2 on the down. There's no signalling for this direct move. Has the train run in on the Up and set back along No2? 

 

I can't make any sense of it at all.  What I've never heard of - which obviously doesn't mean that it never happened, was a through steam hauled service between Taunton and Torrington.  And there were only a few through workings from Taunton to Ilfracombe which was a far more important route as far as the GWR was concerned.  I'll do some delving butt of itself it does seem odd.  Are these trains included  in the timetable list and on the graph?

 

And before we go any further while the notes don't agree with the position of trains on the diagram 43XX do not appear to have ever been authorised  on the Halwill line.  And secondly if they had been it would have been a waste of time as all tender engines were restricted to 15mph on the line - less that half the speed at which passenger trains could be timed to run.

 

The next thing is what is allegedly standing where on that diagram which certainly doesn't agree with what the signalling was capable of at any time between 1912 and the closure of passenger services to Torrington.  The Down Main and Down Loop platform lines at Barnstaple Jcn were signalled solely for use by Down trains from 1912 to the final closure of a signal box at Barnstaple on 1987.  The Torrington branch only had signalled access for passenger trains to the Up Main platform and until April 1971 only, the Middle Siding.

 

Crossing an Up train off the Torrington branch to the Down Main platform - as effectively suggested that diagram - would have involved running through the station on the Up Main to the east end and then setting back onto the Down Main.  However it was not permitted to propel over either of two Down lines between the east and west ends at Barnstaple Jcn (it was only permitted over the Up Main Line) and Working In The Wrong Direction was not permitted on any running lines between the two ends of Barnstaple Jcn.  So effectively that part of that diagram has come solely from somebody's imagination without bothering to check any facts regarding the signalling and operatonal authorities at Barnstaple Jcn.

[Railpassion]

Here's the timetable from August 61 shown in the book. The 43xx comes off at Barny and takes over the up train. There's an express Up for Waterloo in between.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Railpassion
Added fuller pic of down workings

[The Stationmaster]

Looks like a setting out problem on the page rather than anything else (although as ever with them I wonder if teh diagrams agree with the timetable?)

[Railpassion]

In part of the book there's a suggestion West box puts an ex Torrington into the down main platform. This is in quoted dialogue presumably recollected to give a  good flavour of operations.

The time is 0932 

The up WC is at Town and the 2MTT is at Instow. 

 

This wrong direction movement has no signalling 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Railpassion

[The Stationmaster]

As always I am very wary of stuff in Express Books.  a loy t fe depends very much on the author and one of them, from a variety of evidence, clearly had very limited ideas about what was involved in tailway operating at ground level.

 

Unless umpteen Rules and Instructions were broken the story about the Torrington train is nonsense.  Firstly Working in The Wronng Direction was not permitted  over anfy of the running between the West and East signal boxes at Barnstaple  Jcn  so doing it would have been a pretty serious offence.  there was a way of covering it up in the Train Register books at the two signal boxes but anyonne cross-checking the books would very soon work out what had been covered up.

 

But even more important was what was what would physically have to be done in order to make such a movement with two points to clip up and padlock plus the need to somehow handsign a train past a signal at danger over a quarter of a mile from the signal box - all of which is going to tale longer than 5 minutes and probably as much as 10 minutes.  It would have been a lot quicker to run the Torrington train to the Middle Siding and shunt any attachment from there.

[Railpassion]

Thank you, Mike. Straight to the point. 

 

What strikes me is the sheer number of joining and splitting moves carried out on that compact layout throughout the day. It's amazing what could be achieved and what was demanded of the staff.

 

Today's railway has different challenges but few as intense as those in the past, 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, Railpassion said:

Thank you, Mike. Straight to the point. 

 

What strikes me is the sheer number of joining and splitting moves carried out on that compact layout throughout the day. It's amazing what could be achieved and what was demanded of the staff.

 

Today's railway has different challenges but few as intense as those in the past, 

 

 

 

 

Very true.  In the past track layouts and signalling had evolved or had been planned to deal with it all in the simplest - which usually meant quickest - way.  But the 1960s and '70s. saw the major art of such layouts heavily rationalised and teh facilitires to do that sort of thing removed as tarin working was simplified and services reduced or closed.

 

So alot of what went on is  becoming very much a lost art and it can mean quite a bit of research to establish exactly how certain things had been done.  Fortunately soem of the informattion is available but an awful lot of has vanished, along with the people who made use of it.

[Innerhome]

Certainly agree with Stationmaster about the rules issues - and I've never seen a photograph suggesting an up train in one of the down platforms. My assumption would have been that the 08.55 ex Ilfracombe went right to the East end of the up platform - and that the Torrington came in behind it. It is suggested the Ilfracombe only had 4 coaches so this would be possible. The Torrington engine then runs round via the middle siding and pushes the though coaches onto the Ilfracombe.

Two more things which puzzle me:

West Box's points 21 did not have a facing point lock - yet for some moves Torrington coaches must have been drawn back onto the branch before the Ilfracombe arrived - presumably points clipped and padlocked ?

West Box's home signal 38 is to the east of points 26 - so a run round move via the down platforms didn't have a means of signalling across points 26 - which would need to be changed. Presumably every one knew what they were doing - and would treat signal 38 (or 37) as if it applied to points 26 as well ?

 

Must have been fascinating to see all this going on in high summer in the late 50s/early 60s

   

 

 

[bécasse]

14 hours ago, Innerhome said:

 

Two more things which puzzle me:

West Box's points 21 did not have a facing point lock - yet for some moves Torrington coaches must have been drawn back onto the branch before the Ilfracombe arrived - presumably points clipped and padlocked ?

Slow speed passenger moves for marshalling purposes didn't require points traversed in a facing direction to have fpls or to be clipped and padlocked providing that there was a dummy signal (showing OFF) which detected the points concerned.

Edited May 29, 2023 by bécasse

[Oldddudders]

4 minutes ago, bécasse said:

 dolly signal

Dummy on SR.

[Rivercider]

Searching on Flickr there is this view of Barnstaple Junction dated 1961.

There is a train from Ilfracombe arriving in the up platform, but what is that under the bridge

on the Torrington line? Is it the Torrington portion ready to be pushed onto the rear?

 

Flickr by Brian Borrows

 

cheers