WCML Loco Hauled in 1997

[aictosphotos]

I've looked around the various places on the Internet including Wikipedia and just like to confirm some details if I can?

 

Firstly I'm under the impression that Virgin Trains had Mk2 and Mk3 rakes however what I'm not too sure about is did the Mk2 rakes on the EBW services use a Mk1 or Mk3 catering vehicle?

 

What was the formation of the sets? As the information I have says that Virgin Trains did standardise on the formations but not when, as to the formations the information I have state that the following was used:

 

Loco + 5 x Mk3 TSOs + 1 x Mk3 RFM + 3 x Mk3 FOs + DVT

 

Loco + 5 x Mk2 TSOs + 1 x Mk3 RFM + 3 x Mk2 FOs + DVT

 

Loco + 5 x Mk2 TSOs + 1 x Mk1 RFM + 3 x Mk2 FOs + DVT

 

However Google has provided me with a MK2 RFB that is in the Virgin Trains livery but Wikipedia states that no Mk2 catering vehicles were built so what was the origin of the VT MK2F RFM than?

 

Was it a converted Mk2 FO?

 

https://www.monkbarmodelshop.co.uk/model-railways-c5/oo-model-railways-c6/rolling-stock-oo-c32/coaches-oo-c33/br-mk2f-rfb-restaurant-first-buffet-virgin-trains-original-p20318

 

What were the usual standard formations that VT used on the West Coast back than as I know that they had just more or less taken over operations in 1997 so I'm wondering if in fact they just continued to use whatever formations BR used until VT got settled in?

 

Also to the Mk2 RFMs, if Virgin Trains Cross Country used them on their Mk2 rakes than why didn't Virgin Trains West Coast use them on their Mk2 rakes?

[woodenhead]

40 minutes ago, aictosphotos said:

What were the usual standard formations that VT used on the West Coast back than as I know that they had just more or less taken over operations in 1997 so I'm wondering if in fact they just continued to use whatever formations BR used until VT got settled in?

 

Also to the Mk2 RFMs, if Virgin Trains Cross Country used them on their Mk2 rakes than why didn't Virgin Trains West Coast use them on their Mk2 rakes?

MK2 catering vehicles were all converted, none were built like that.

 

West Coast only used Mk3 catering vehicles afaik and were a different franchise to Virgin XC.  The split of stock into pools would have taken place between sectorisation and shadow franchising in the lead up to privatisation.  On board catering differered between the two type of service - West Coast had at seat catering for First class so needed the extra capacity whereas Cross Country had simpler offerings, less first class and no at seat catering as far as I remember beyond a trolley service.

 

The Mk1 buffets ended with door locking and the cascsade of HSTs onto Cross Country services so there were none in use by 1997.

[aictosphotos]

So the West Coast formations would have been:

 

Loco + 5 x Mk3 TSOs + 1 x Mk3 RFM + 3 x Mk3 FOs + DVT for Trent Valley services?

 

Loco + 5 x Mk2 TSOs + 1 x Mk3 RFM + 3 x Mk2 FOs + DVT for EBW services?

 

Was there any standard formations being used when Virgin Trains took over the WCML operations?

 

@hexagon789 Not sure if you also post on other railway forums but there's one post I found with the same username as yourself who has provided the 1986 WCML set formations, do you happen to have the set formations for 1997 at all?

 

Also, I'm looking at the September 1997 CB WTT and it has the following train loads but it doesn't explain how to work them out?

 

E315

E385

E385-1

E455

E595-8

 

D210

D350

D400

 

All the WTT seems to explain is E or D means that it's either electric or diesel hauled.

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by aictosphotos
Add more information to the question

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, aictosphotos said:

So the West Coast formations would have been:

 

Loco + 5 x Mk3 TSOs + 1 x Mk3 RFM + 3 x Mk3 FOs + DVT for Trent Valley services?

 

Loco + 5 x Mk2 TSOs + 1 x Mk3 RFM + 3 x Mk2 FOs + DVT for EBW services?

 

Was there any standard formations being used when Virgin Trains took over the WCML operations?

Virgin pretty much spent the last years before the Pendolinos just putting together any carriages that would run.

 

Nominally there were 3 Mk3 formations:

 

DVT-2 FO-RFM-5 TSO

DVT-3 FO-RFM-4 TSO

DVT-3 FO-RFM-5 TSO

 

And one Mk2F formation:

 

DVT-3 FO-RFM-5 TSO

 

In practice I've seen EBW sets wutb 6 TSO, with only 2 FO.

 

Mk3 sets with 2 FO with only 4 TSO

 

A Mk2F set with a random Mk3 TSO in among the 2F TSOs

 

And so on.

 

Within the TSOs you also have subtle variations, the 2F sets had usually one TSO with some seats removed to provide a wheelchair space, designated TSOW.

 

The Mk3 sets had two variants, one type with 72 seats and two wheelchair spaces (TSOW) but no accessible toilet and also vehicles with an accessible toilet (TSOD). There was also one FO with an accessible toilet, converted as a prototype (FOD).

 

Now, ideally you'd assume sets would have at least one wheelchair vehicle of some description?

 

Well, I've seen sets with none, but also in one case, a Glasgow Mk3set using up 5(!) TSOD vehicles.

 

Ie - DVT-2 FO-RFM-TSO×5

 

3 hours ago, aictosphotos said:

Not sure if you also post on other railway forums but there's one post I found with the same username as yourself who has provided the 1986 WCML set formations, do you happen to have the set formations for 1997 at all?

I do post elsewhere, the 1986 formations are just derived from one of the documents in Robert Carroll's groups dot io, ex-Yahoo, BR Coaching Stock Group.

 

I don't think by 1997 Carriage Working Notices were being complied any longer. I do have lists if observed set formations, but for the 2000s not late-90s.

3 hours ago, aictosphotos said:

E315

E385

E385-1

E455

E595-8

 

D210

D350

D400

They just refer to the timing load (I.e. weight) that can keep to the Sectional running times for a particular service.

 

E385 would be an electric and 11 coaches.

 

Day coaches are assumed to be 35 tonnes for train weight calculations.

 

E455 was the traditional WCML timing with the 1974 timetable - up to 13 coaches worked by 86/1 or 87.

 

 

 

[aictosphotos]

21 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Virgin pretty much spent the last years before the Pendolinos just putting together any carriages that would run.

 

Nominally there were 3 Mk3 formations:

 

DVT-2 FO-RFM-5 TSO

DVT-3 FO-RFM-4 TSO

DVT-3 FO-RFM-5 TSO

 

And one Mk2F formation:

 

DVT-3 FO-RFM-5 TSO

 

In practice I've seen EBW sets wutb 6 TSO, with only 2 FO.

 

Mk3 sets with 2 FO with only 4 TSO

 

A Mk2F set with a random Mk3 TSO in among the 2F TSOs

 

And so on.

 

Within the TSOs you also have subtle variations, the 2F sets had usually one TSO with some seats removed to provide a wheelchair space, designated TSOW.

 

The Mk3 sets had two variants, one type with 72 seats and two wheelchair spaces (TSOW) but no accessible toilet and also vehicles with an accessible toilet (TSOD). There was also one FO with an accessible toilet, converted as a prototype (FOD).

 

Now, ideally you'd assume sets would have at least one wheelchair vehicle of some description?

 

Well, I've seen sets with none, but also in one case, a Glasgow Mk3set using up 5(!) TSOD vehicles.

 

Ie - DVT-2 FO-RFM-TSO×5

 

I do post elsewhere, the 1986 formations are just derived from one of the documents in Robert Carroll's groups dot io, ex-Yahoo, BR Coaching Stock Group.

 

I don't think by 1997 Carriage Working Notices were being complied any longer. I do have lists if observed set formations, but for the 2000s not late-90s.

They just refer to the timing load (I.e. weight) that can keep to the Sectional running times for a particular service.

 

E385 would be an electric and 11 coaches.

 

Day coaches are assumed to be 35 tonnes for train weight calculations.

 

E455 was the traditional WCML timing with the 1974 timetable - up to 13 coaches worked by 86/1 or 87.

 

 

 

 

Okay this might take a while and I am sorry for the following word vomiting in use as it's something I tend to suffer from but just to confirm:

 

And one Mk2F formation:

 

DVT-3 FO-RFM-5 TSO

 

In practice I've seen EBW sets wutb 6 TSO, with only 2 FO.

 

So where the EBW sets were concerned with 6 TSOs and 2 FOs, was that a usual thing or just when they needed to have extra capacity on the EBW services because of some major event or what not at the NEC?

 

Or were they generally marshalled as the Mk2F formation you've given?

 

Nominally there were 3 Mk3 formations:

 

DVT-2 FO-RFM-5 TSO

DVT-3 FO-RFM-4 TSO

DVT-3 FO-RFM-5 TSO

 

Again, how did VT decide which formations were used on what services? Did they prefer to use the 9 coach formations on the Glasgow services with the Liverpool and Manchester services using the 8 coach formations?

 

I don't think by 1997 Carriage Working Notices were being complied any longer. I do have lists if observed set formations, but for the 2000s not late-90s.

 

Which years in the 2000s do you have the observed set formations? 2004?

 

As to carriage working notices, what were they? What information did they have? Would there have been much difference between say 1995 to 1997?

 

E385 would be an electric and 11 coaches.

 

Day coaches are assumed to be 35 tonnes for train weight calculations.

 

Using the above, I think I've worked out the following?:

 

E315 is Loco + 9 coaches

E455 is Loco + 13 coaches

E595-8 is 17 coaches

 

The only things that I'm not sure on is what does E385-1 and E595-8 mean?

 

As to the Scottish sleepers, I've seen on Wikipedia that they used VT Class 87s before the EWS Class 90s were used now under First/EWS I believe the Highland/Lowland Sleeper was formed of 16 coaches formed of portions for Inverness/Aberdeen/Fort William (Fort William seating coaches added at Edinburgh), Edinburgh and Glasgow, was this formation more or less the same during the period between BR and Post BR eras? 

 

Finally I know Virgin Trains were operating the WCML IC services in 1997 but was there much difference between when BR Intercity West Coast operated services in/out of London Euston in 1994 to 1996 to when Virgin Trains were operating services in 1997 ?

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, aictosphotos said:

So where the EBW sets were concerned with 6 TSOs and 2 FOs, was that a usual thing or just when they needed to have extra capacity on the EBW services because of some major event or what not at the NEC?

In the 2002 formations list I have, only one set was formed like that.

 

There are a number of possible reasons, the one which immediately springs to mind is operational convenience. 

 

1 hour ago, aictosphotos said:

Which years in the 2000s do you have the observed set formations? 2004?

 

As to carriage working notices, what were they? What information did they have? Would there have been much difference between say 1995 to 1997?

2002-04 iirc. I would need to look out the file. My information above is from memory of what was in said document.

 

The Carriage Working Notices gave the 'booked formation' for each service.

 

Ie the type and capacity of coaches, the maximum weight the train could be. That sort of thing.

 

1 hour ago, aictosphotos said:

Using the above, I think I've worked out the following?:

 

E315 is Loco + 9 coaches

E455 is Loco + 13 coaches

E595-8 is 17 coaches

 

The only things that I'm not sure on is what does E385-1 and E595-8 mean?

Presumably a variation on a standard E-385/E595 timing. Possibly that they could use a lesser powered loco without losing time on these workings.

 

Without seeing the relevant information I am just guessing though. I have noticed that the Working Timetables don't always give specifics on timing loads. I understand another document gave these details.

 

1 hour ago, aictosphotos said:

As to the Scottish sleepers, I've seen on Wikipedia that they used VT Class 87s before the EWS Class 90s were used now under First/EWS I believe the Highland/Lowland Sleeper was formed of 16 coaches formed of portions for Inverness/Aberdeen/Fort William (Fort William seating coaches added at Edinburgh), Edinburgh and Glasgow, was this formation more or less the same during the period between BR and Post BR eras? 

ScotRail made some changes in the 2000s, such as re-introducing seated accommodation.

 

1 hour ago, aictosphotos said:

Finally I know Virgin Trains were operating the WCML IC services in 1997 but was there much difference between when BR Intercity West Coast operated services in/out of London Euston in 1994 to 1996 to when Virgin Trains were operating services in 1997 ?

Not especially, just that services seemed to get slower and slower each year under Virgin until the accelerated 390 timetable came in.

[aictosphotos]

4 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

In the 2002 formations list I have, only one set was formed like that.

 

There are a number of possible reasons, the one which immediately springs to mind is operational convenience. 

 

2002-04 iirc. I would need to look out the file. My information above is from memory of what was in said document.

 

The Carriage Working Notices gave the 'booked formation' for each service.

 

Ie the type and capacity of coaches, the maximum weight the train could be. That sort of thing.

 

Presumably a variation on a standard E-385/E595 timing. Possibly that they could use a lesser powered loco without losing time on these workings.

 

Without seeing the relevant information I am just guessing though. I have noticed that the Working Timetables don't always give specifics on timing loads. I understand another document gave these details.

 

ScotRail made some changes in the 2000s, such as re-introducing seated accommodation.

 

Not especially, just that services seemed to get slower and slower each year under Virgin until the accelerated 390 timetable came in.

 

Thank you, I didn't know that the seated accommodation was reintroduced in 2000  - makes me wonder what the formation was between 1993 and 2000 than...

[hexagon789]

7 hours ago, aictosphotos said:

 

Thank you, I didn't know that the seated accommodation was reintroduced in 2000  - makes me wonder what the formation was between 1993 and 2000 than...

Mk1 BG instead of BuO I believe.

 

ScotRail did retain one BG as a

spare until about 2004-5.

[aictosphotos]

4 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Mk1 BG instead of BuO I believe.

 

ScotRail did retain one BG as a

spare until about 2004-5.

 

Interesting, I've been told some conflicting information which I hope you might be able to explain.

 

I've been told elsewhere that the 8 car formations were used to Edinburgh and Glasgow while the 10 car formations were used to Aberdeen and Inverness:

 

4 sets - SLE-SLEP-RLO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLE-SLEP
5 sets - SLE-SLEP-RLO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLEP

 

I've been told that the standard formation for Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness was:

 

NHA-SLE-SLEP-SLE-RLO-SLE-SLEP-SLE-SLEP

 

So which one sounds right? I think the Fort William used to operated solo as: 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP and 2 Mk2s?

 

Did they use both NHAs and BGs when they got rid of the seats? If the above formations weren't right, than what did the formation look like?

 

The CB WTTs seem to have the Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Fort William, Glasgow and Inverness as 5 different trains in 1994 yet in 1995 the CB WTTs seem to settle on just two trains, the Glasgow with a Edinburgh portion and the Inverness with the Aberdeen/Fort William portions so would it be safe to say that from 1995 the Anglo-Scottish sleepers were marshalled into the format that they use today minus the seated accommodation?