Industrial/ GW layout plan - any ideas?

[thetrainkid]

As a school first project, we're hoping to build a layout in 4mm scale (probably OO although I'm considering EM). The space we have available is about 1.8m x 0.6m approximately, since it'll be stored atop a shelf when not in use, and I already have an alternate history planned.

The idea is that a company based somewhere in a rural bit of Wales built an industrial railway linking their steelworks / mine / factory to a GWR branch terminus in the early 20th century. Open wagons and small 0-4-0STs and 0-6-0STs probably ran the fictitious line until it hit financial struggles. At this point, the GWR seized the opportunity and bought out the line and its rolling stock, taking over operations of the entire section, with the company in charge of manufacture/mining only. This arrangement supposedly continued well into Nationalisation, and the chosen period is the ubiquitous 1960s for obvious reasons. It should be quite interesting to see an industrial 0-4-0/0-6-0 in GWR green!

 

The plan itself isn't really concrete yet, so here's an early sketch:Please excuse my handwriting... 

 

Anyway - in terms of practicality, what trackplan would we use? The shunting yard as well - I've seen some plans of exchange sidings - would the yard look similar? What in the way of rolling stock? Would the fiddle yard be formed of a cassette system?

Scenically, other than perhaps the odd hard standing or two, an engine shed and a small hut, what else would be present at such a location?

Also, in terms of control - DCC is what we're hoping to use. Since there would be two sections operating more or less independently, with trains shuttling in and out of the station and shuffling of wagons going on in the foreground, would we have to use 'master-slave' DCC units for control of the 'mainline' and yard separately?

Thanks a lot for any advice, and again, sorry about my messiness in the 'plan'.

[Flying Pig]

With only 1.8m to play with, cutting off one end to make a fiddle yard is eating into your space quite a lot.  Perhaps consider a Piano Line arrangement, where the entrance is part way along a loop?  At least one very well-known industrial model (Allied Marine) used this arrangement which imo is a lot more convincing in an industrial context than as a branch line.

 

Also, please don't spoil industrials by slapping main line liveries on them. There's no reason why you can't run an industrial railway with a mixture of privately owned locos and hired-in BR or ex-GWR types.  If you can run to buying locos perhaps a 1361, 1366 or 15xx (if you are wealthy enough)?

[DCB]

You are up against it length wise with only 1.8M    My BLT is 2.1M with a long main line approach.,   Not very obvious mistakes include not using the whole length, I would put the buffer stops right up against the end of the board, and using over length wagons, lots of  00 minerals are on 10 foot w/b chassis when they should be on the shorter 9ft version.   Again if you don't have any more length beyond the run round loop points than you need.   My BLT is based loosely on Faringdon which  had enough room for a Dean Goods to run round a train but not a 43XX 2-6-0 and mine is the same, so tailor your point work to your locos and stock.  If you have the skill Peco set track points trimmed to five 44mm track centres save a huge amount of space. (Shown) 

I did a doodle in Anyrail.   The theme is an interchange between a colliery railway and the GWR  Colliery locos and GWR both use centre sidings ,  The (GWR)  Platform takes 3 coaches but only room on Cassette for an Auto Train .

The Engine shed is for colliery locos, lots of little locos, Dapol kits if you are skint. Long road could have coaling platform. 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by DCB

[CKPR]

Here's a long shot for an industrial branch on the GWR - Stirchley sidings that served a chemical works in what is now Telford and which remained open until the 1950s. Obviously, it wouldn't fit in your available space but might provide some inspiration for a GWR served industrial site other than the  quarries, mines or docks usually associated with the GWR.

Edited June 8, 2023 by CKPR

[thetrainkid]

13 hours ago, DCB said:

 

 

Whoa, thanks a lot! This seems pretty well developed, and quite fits my theme. The only real adaptation I'd probably make would be lengthening the headshunt in the bottom right, although the practicality there is yet to be seen.

Edited June 8, 2023 by thetrainkid

[thetrainkid]

5 hours ago, CKPR said:

Here's a long shot for an industrial branch on the GWR - Stirchley sidings that served a chemical works in what is now Telford and which remained open until the 1950s. Obviosly, it wouldn't fit in your available space but might provide some inspiration for a GWR served industrial site other than the  quarries, mines or docks usually associated with the GWR.

Seems quite nice, I'll look into it further.

[thetrainkid]

19 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Also, please don't spoil industrials by slapping main line liveries on them. There's no reason why you can't run an industrial railway with a mixture of privately owned locos and hired-in BR or ex-GWR types.  If you can run to buying locos perhaps a 1361, 1366 or 15xx (if you are wealthy enough)?

Good point, I appreciate it. 

Realistically though, what might happen to locomotives which were bought out along with their line? I'm definitely no expert- correct me if I am wrong -  but if the GW set up a subsidiary to run the line, might the locos retain an industrial livery? Maybe if they were given running permissions on GWR metals, they'd have their own liveries, plus route availability and/or power classification? Perhaps, if taken into ownership of the mainline directly, they'd even have GWR numberplates? 

I don't mind using modeller's licence to just keep PO liveries, but this whole bit is out of curiosity.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, thetrainkid said:

Good point, I appreciate it. 

Realistically though, what might happen to locomotives which were bought out along with their line? I'm definitely no expert- correct me if I am wrong -  but if the GW set up a subsidiary to run the line, might the locos retain an industrial livery? Maybe if they were given running permissions on GWR metals, they'd have their own liveries, plus route availability and/or power classification? Perhaps, if taken into ownership of the mainline directly, they'd even have GWR numberplates? 

I don't mind using modeller's licence to just keep PO liveries, but this whole bit is out of curiosity.

 

I think you're overcomplicating this with an improbable scenario.  Most likely there would be locos owned or leased by the colliery company (the NCB by the 1960s) working the around the pit itself and up to a point where traffic was exchanged with the railway company (BR).  That could be close to the pit, with the branch worked by BR, or at the junction, with the branch worked by the NCB.

 

As I suggested above, you can mix NCB and leased BR types so this doesn't really restrict your modelling.  If you want to transfer the traffic outside the pit itself, you can perhaps find a way to have larger BR locos appearing, having worked in empties or other traffic (57xx, 56xx or even a 42xx if you're feeling brave).

[CKPR]

What Flying Pig says. Moreover, the GWR didn't go in for subsidiary companies but rather assimilated other railway companies before, during and after the 1923 grouping. As a result, the GWR had quite a few non-GWR engines, some of which were standard industrial designs (e.g. the engines from thr Alexandra Dock Co.), that were usually 'Swindonized' through rebuilding with GW fittings.

[Schooner]

Not an answer to your question, but a Here's One I Made Earlier to show what's possible in your space

 

Immediate take-aways:

• If your baseboard size is only limited by where it is stored, don't waste precious scenic space by storing cassettes within it - have them attach to the edge when the layout is in use. This approach opens up a host of operational shenanigans otherwise impossible, and scope for add-on modules (like the curved backscene module above)

(an embarrasingly WIP photo, but it shows the cassette and folding bracket which supports it)

• Don't feel compelled to cram in the entire scene. Such a small* layout is an arbitrary thing, so lean into it and use the 'edge of the world' to open up interesting views or operationally-relevant viewblocks.

*It's not really small; careful choice of subject, clearly defined compromises** and a sympathetic approach can make it seem spacious as anything, and you've plenty of room for what you aim to achieve :)

**Setrack turnouts in the above. Compare to the layout in the photo, of even smaller footprint, which uses Peco's Code 75 Bullhead large turnouts and >3' minimum radius cruves, but is 'only' a stretched Inglenook of @Harlequin's invention

 

• 
  
• Get track into every corner if at all possible, but avoid too many parallel lines; draw the eye into every corner but avoid things becoming too busy - I find it helps to identify and try to highlight either background or foreground interest in any given scene, never both, and the middle ground is used to give these a sense of space even when there isn't much!

[The Johnster]

On 08/06/2023 at 02:36, DCB said:

and using over length wagons, lots of  00 minerals are on 10 foot w/b chassis when they should be on the shorter 9ft version. 

Hornby and Dapol are guilty of this, as were Airfix, Lima, Wrenn, Trix, Triang, and Hornby Dublo in their day if you are considering eBay bargains.  The reason is that they use(d) generic goods wagon chassis that are correct for many general merchandise vans and opens, and stretched the mineral bodies to fit (which in the case of wooden-bodied minerals makes them difficult to alter to the correct dimensions because of the moulded diagonal strapping).  Bachmann and Oxford provide minerals of the correct size on the correct 9’ wheelbase chassis.  
 

As well as the scale appearance consideration, this is worth bearing in mind if you are restricted for space (and who isn’t?).  You’ll be able to fit 10 Baccy/Ox minerals in the space needed for 9 Hornby or Dap, and 10 short correct wagons look like a longer train than 9 overlength ones.  

Edited June 21, 2023 by The Johnster

[thetrainkid]

On 09/06/2023 at 02:24, Schooner said:

Not an answer to your question, but a Here's One I Made Earlier to show what's possible in your space

 

Immediate take-aways:

• If your baseboard size is only limited by where it is stored, don't waste precious scenic space by storing cassettes within it - have them attach to the edge when the layout is in use. This approach opens up a host of operational shenanigans otherwise impossible, and scope for add-on modules (like the curved backscene module above)

(an embarrasingly WIP photo, but it shows the cassette and folding bracket which supports it)

• Don't feel compelled to cram in the entire scene. Such a small* layout is an arbitrary thing, so lean into it and use the 'edge of the world' to open up interesting views or operationally-relevant viewblocks.

*It's not really small; careful choice of subject, clearly defined compromises** and a sympathetic approach can make it seem spacious as anything, and you've plenty of room for what you aim to achieve :)

**Setrack turnouts in the above. Compare to the layout in the photo, of even smaller footprint, which uses Peco's Code 75 Bullhead large turnouts and >3' minimum radius cruves, but is 'only' a stretched Inglenook of @Harlequin's invention

 

•  
• Get track into every corner if at all possible, but avoid too many parallel lines; draw the eye into every corner but avoid things becoming too busy - I find it helps to identify and try to highlight either background or foreground interest in any given scene, never both, and the middle ground is used to give these a sense of space even when there isn't much!

What sort of system do you use for attaching these cassettes? I can sort of see how it's done, but not fully.

[Schooner]

22 hours ago, thetrainkid said:

What sort of system do you use for attaching these cassettes?

Intentio cassettes (2 each of medium, large and super for local/trip, standard and special workings/storage respectively) on a latched folding bracket (off eBay/Amazon etc), with a lump of pine as a spacer to improve the flow of on-scene trackwork since the previous photo. Still WIP, but pretty much there now:

A little fettling to do, but perfectly functional as intended. The bracket does not hold a perfect right angle, hence the wedge and spacer-washers but tbh these are overkill!

 

The only thing I'd do differently is not to use Code 100 Set-track, as recommended for the cassettes, but just use Code 75 BH throughout. This would negate much mucking about, and would've made life a lot simpler!

[the-Prof]

I note that you say "school first project".  Is your intention to have multiple simultaneous operators working the layout?  If so, given your scenario, I'd head down the line to the colliery and away from the station/junction.  In a fully industrial layout I could see a fairly large shunting yard being viable and you can create unusual details such as working wagon TTs or working coal loaders if that's your thing. Plenty of stuff for multiple people to operate at the same time.