NER Livery

[Schooner]

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

reconstructive [/experimental] archaeology

My favourite kind!

 

For curiosity's sake only, how far are you intending to go down the 'how a loco might have been painted' path?

 

[Edwardian]

Well, I'd like to at least a glimpse the rabbit ....

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

At what point do the 'colourblind' (easy shorthand, apologies) raise their hands...?!

 

Ah well, there you go. These engines might just as well be red.

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah well, there you go. These engines might just as well be red.

 

Like the Great Western's

[Edwardian]

They also came in green ....

 

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Like the Great Western's

 

Beat me to it. I was about to post the self-same photo of Olton Hall with the comment that it was all the better for it. So instead we'll have to have:

 

 

 

[Embedded link to Hattons website.]

Edited July 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[Schooner]

And here was me thinking they were grey, begining*

to end

 

*Obvs not as pictured, but hope you'll agree a photo worth sharing, from Didcot's Facebook page

EDIT: Oh go on then:

Edited July 9, 2023 by Schooner

[Edwardian]

8 minutes ago, Schooner said:

And here was me thinking they were grey, begining*

to end

 

*Obvs not as pictured, but hope you'll agree a photo worth sharing, from Didcot's Facebook page

 

Problem solved then

 

 

 

 

 

[CF MRC]

I am currently making a model

if the Raven 4-6-2 class. I had to paint the wheels early on in construction so used the Precision paints colour. 

I think it’s a bit too ‘strong’ for a 2mm model (doesn’t really matter too much for the wheels) so I will experiment with lightening it and reducing the blue hues a little.

 

Tim

P.S. Of course, this engine did run in grey paint for a while…

Edited July 9, 2023 by CF MRC

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I hate to sully this thread with such a repuslive looking locomotive, but at least we can be pretty certain of its colour (do Precision Paints do a "works grey"?). Painting it in a shade of "radioactive vomit" can hardly make it look any worse, now, can it?

 

 

Another aside (and remember that I know next to nothing about locomotive colours east of the Pennines), can we assume that LNER "Darlington" green was a slightly lighter shade than LNER apple green and also that it was darker than whatever the NER had been using immediately before the Grouping?

 

Of course, "lighter" does not really say where it sits on the yellow/blue* spectrum. There is every chance that the NER's Saxony green paint included white lead, since this served as a filler and improved opacity, as well as lightening the colour.

 

*There'll be some red in there from both the chrome yellow and the Prussian blue.

[Edwardian]

28 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I hate to sully this thread with such a repuslive looking locomotive, but at least we can be pretty certain of its colour (do Precision Paints do a "works grey"?). Painting it in a shade of "radioactive vomit" can hardly make it look any worse, now, can it?

 

 

That's a perfectly handsome locomotive (going backwards from about a third of the way along the centre splasher. The front part looks as if an American got to it. 

 

28 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

 

Another aside (and remember that I know next to nothing about locomotive colours east of the Pennines), can we assume that LNER "Darlington" green was a slightly lighter shade than LNER apple green and also that it was darker than whatever the NER had been using immediately before the Grouping?

 

Of course, "lighter" does not really say where it sits on the yellow/blue* spectrum. There is every chance that the NER's Saxony green paint included white lead, since this served as a filler and improved opacity, as well as lightening the colour.

 

*There'll be some red in there from both the chrome yellow and the Prussian blue.

 

Hmm, LNER. Beyond my ken I'm afraid.

[DenysW]

21 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

such a repuslive looking locomotive,

Can we substitute 'powerful' for 'repulsive', please?

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Can we substitute 'powerful' for 'repulsive', please?

 

"Right and Repulsive" [1066 And All That].

[Jeremy Cumberland]

28 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Can we substitute 'powerful' for 'repulsive', please?

It's all flannel. There's still only 26" travel in those four foot long cylinders, and I won't say what those little teats on the ends of the piston valves remind me of.

[Worsdell forever]

If they'd kept the valves on the inside where they belong with some sensible valve gear it probably wouldn't have looked so bad...

[drmditch]

On 09/07/2023 at 21:32, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I hate to sully this thread with such a repuslive looking locomotive, but at least we can be pretty certain of its colour (do Precision Paints do a "works grey"?). Painting it in a shade of "radioactive vomit" can hardly make it look any worse, now, can it?

 

 

Another aside (and remember that I know next to nothing about locomotive colours east of the Pennines), can we assume that LNER "Darlington" green was a slightly lighter shade than LNER apple green and also that it was darker than whatever the NER had been using immediately before the Grouping?

 

Of course, "lighter" does not really say where it sits on the yellow/blue* spectrum. There is every chance that the NER's Saxony green paint included white lead, since this served as a filler and improved opacity, as well as lightening the colour.

 

*There'll be some red in there from both the chrome yellow and the Prussian blue.

Repulsive in whose eyes?

The S2 4-6-0s (LNER B15s) seem to me to have been rather handsome.

 

The single example used as an experiment for 'uniflow' cylinders must have seemed worthwhile at the time, even if it was apparently somewhat noisy.

[Ian Rathbone]

In regard to the colours I use - I don’t record the colours in my records, perhaps I ought to have done. It is usually customer preference or, when they don’t know, it will be the PP paint or a cellulose mixed to match. For 910 I was given a number of photos of the preserved engine (which appeared to be under a tent somewhere) for both the colour match and the lining details. The main colour is certainly not Saxon Green but is a close match to PP ‘LSWR Urie Green’ (which may well be fictional). I had some cellulose mixed to match and my customer was happy with that. The coupling rod splashers may have been Saxon but appeared more blue in the photos so there I used Brunswick (GCR). Interestingly the wheels were another green, very close to PP LNER Darlington, which I used.

Ian R

 

 

 

[ian@stenochs]

This thread has been fascinating and thought provoking even though my interest is not the NER.

 

I have been building models from the same railway for 50+ years.  There is only one preserved engine from the line and that is late period.  The only contemporary model, more a toy, I know about is painted in municipal green paint!  

 

When I was younger I was lucky to meet and listen to ex employees and enthusiasts who remembered the railway and some even commented on my early modelling efforts. Despite bring painted in differing shades, whatever Humbrol or Airfix produced at the time,  the most common comment was 'that looks right'!

 

Since then my philosophy on painting is to ensure that I paint each part in the correct colour, ie, if the original was green it will be green on the model.  The colour or shade I choose is the one I think is correct.  Having read everything I can find on the subject I am happy that my shade is close enough!

 

100 years on since the grouping I am sure nobody can be any more definite.

 

Ian

[thetalkinlens]

I've been debating whether to get involved in this thread, as I thought my posts gave some helpful objective comparisons on the TMC thread. I'm not sure whether the opening post of this thread targets any of my posts as disregarded or not.

 

However, I think it is worth a second comparison to the opening post, specifically with the NER Record Vol.3 swatch and the Bachmann Class O. The reason being, the photos in the opening post of the O, I agree the green looks like radioactive vomit. But I don't understand how this has been achieved. My O looks nothing like that shade of green unless I place it under very harsh light.

 

I think it is an important factor to include comparisons within the same photograph, as taking two photos to compare will result in different exposure etc etc.

 

Here is a photo of my O under natural daylight. No sunshine. Cloudy. And also outside, so no glare that may come off windows. Handily, it is photographed on top of the page in the NER Record with the colour sample.

 

 

Now comparing to the opening post photo of the O (I hope that is ok posting @Edwardian's photo direct here for the purposes of comparison) which is stated also taken under natural daylight:

 

 

Next the swatches. Here is the opening post NER Record on the left and the Bachmann O on the right:

 

 

and here are mine of the same subjects, taken from the first photo above.

 

 

So is the Bachmann NER green as far out as what is being suggested?

 

I am in the same situation as the opening post. I have a Bachmann Class O and I would like to know how close or far out the green is. Hopefully this post is objective and provides a useful second comparison.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, thetalkinlens said:

Hopefully this post is objective and provides a useful second comparison.

 

That is very interesting. Your conclusion is closer to mine. There is, to my mind, clearly a difference between what the eye sees and what the art of photography presents. 

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

I've been debating whether to get involved in this thread, as I thought my posts gave some helpful objective comparisons on the TMC thread. I'm not sure whether the opening post of this thread targets any of my posts as disregarded or not.

 

However, I think it is worth a second comparison to the opening post, specifically with the NER Record Vol.3 swatch and the Bachmann Class O. The reason being, the photos in the opening post of the O, I agree the green looks like radioactive vomit. But I don't understand how this has been achieved. My O looks nothing like that shade of green unless I place it under very harsh light.

 

I think it is an important factor to include comparisons within the same photograph, as taking two photos to compare will result in different exposure etc etc.

 

Here is a photo of my O under natural daylight. No sunshine. Cloudy. And also outside, so no glare that may come off windows. Handily, it is photographed on top of the page in the NER Record with the colour sample.

 

 

Now comparing to the opening post photo of the O (I hope that is ok posting @Edwardian's photo direct here for the purposes of comparison) which is stated also taken under natural daylight:

 

 

Next the swatches. Here is the opening post NER Record on the left and the Bachmann O on the right:

 

 

and here are mine of the same subjects, taken from the first photo above.

 

 

So is the Bachmann NER green as far out as what is being suggested?

 

I am in the same situation as the opening post. I have a Bachmann Class O and I would like to know how close or far out the green is. Hopefully this post is objective and provides a useful second comparison.

 

Well, if mine looked anything like your picture to my naked eye, I would be more than content

 

 

But it just doesn't.

 

Whatever might be said about the camera lying, I would say:

 

(i) My camera doesn't cause any other loco livery colour to appear wierd as f-

 

(ii) While worse the brighter the light, to my eyes the Bachmann green is always too light and too yellow. The range is from radioactive vomit in the sun, to sickly pale yellow in the hade. 

 

(iii) My pictures are reasonably representative of how it appears in the flesh and in the flesh it's never looked anything like your picture

 

(iv) Put the Bachmann loco next to any other model in a maintream interpretation of Saxony Green and the incongruity of the Bachmann shade is unavoidable.

 

In short, while I'd buy a loco the colour of the one in your picture, I've never seen the Bachmann O look anywhere close to it. You seem strangely and uniquely blessed.

 

[thetalkinlens]

16 hours ago, Edwardian said:

In short, while I'd buy a loco the colour of the one in your picture, I've never seen the Bachmann O look anywhere close to it. You seem strangely and uniquely blessed.

 

I cannot explain that, but I'm doing nothing with the photos taken beyond firing the shutter. They are simply with an iPhone with everything set to automatic.

 

Here is an additional comparison with the same subjects in the same location, but under "full sun" light. The shadow can be seen on the model to indicate this. The time of day was 1pm, taken today, so the sun is relatively high in the sky for the time of year.

 

 

And here are the same colour samples picked out from the models tank side and the books left hand colour sample:

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by thetalkinlens

[thetalkinlens]

And now a comparison which I think is quite interesting.

 

First the opening post photo of the O again:

 

 

And now the the same photo in my previous post, but over-exposed by 2 full stops in Photoshop:

 

 

And now another photo taken just now, with the camera over exposed by 2 full stops rather than in Photoshop:

 

 

Now we have clearly achieved a very similar radioactive vomit colour here. But also, look how much the colour now varies between the model and the colour sample in the book...

 

 

I believe the original decorated samples photographs by TMC also suffered from a degree of over exposure. As they were taken in a lightbox type environment, that doesn't surprise me.

 

Does this explain things? Maybe, maybe not, but it is yet another interesting comparison.

 

Do I see to my eye the Bachmann Class O as my camera takes it either set to normal automatic exposure, or 2 full stops over exposed? I see it as the normal exposure.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by thetalkinlens

[MarkC]

Serious question here - what colour primer & undercoat was used by the NER before the green topcoat was applied? I know that the Midland's paint system was quite involved; it was partly responsible for the wonderfully deep colour that we know.

 

(I'm away from my own reference library at present, otherwise I'd look this up myself).

 

Mark

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

And now a comparison which I think is quite interesting.

 

First the opening post photo of the O again:

 

 

And now the the same photo in my previous post, but over-exposed by 2 full stops in Photoshop:

 

 

And now another photo taken just now, with the camera over exposed by 2 full stops rather than in Photoshop:

 

 

Now we have clearly achieved a very similar radioactive vomit colour here. But also, look how much the colour now varies between the model and the colour sample in the book...

 

 

I believe the original decorated samples photographs by TMC also suffered from a degree of over exposure. As they were taken in a lightbox type environment, that doesn't surprise me.

 

Does this explain things? Maybe, maybe not, but it is yet another interesting comparison.

 

Do I see to my eye the Bachmann Class O as my camera takes it either set to normal automatic exposure, or 2 full stops over exposed? I see it as the normal exposure.

 

 

 

 

 

I mean that's a useful exercise to a point! It shows that my 'phone camera is pretty unforgiving. The initial pictures I took with other locos in NER livery, which remain normal and a much better colour!

 

My problem remains that I cannot, in any light, get the model to look like your initial picture when viewed with the naked eye!

 

In other words, I can get it to look less radioactive by the naked eye, but I cannot perceive it as other than too much to the light and yellow side. In less than bright light, I don't see the depth of colour acheived in your picture. 

 

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Serious question here - what colour primer & undercoat was used by the NER before the green topcoat was applied? I know that the Midland's paint system was quite involved; it was partly responsible for the wonderfully deep colour that we know.

 

(I'm away from my own reference library at present, otherwise I'd look this up myself).

 

Mark

 

I wish I did and it would be really helpful to know.