BR WR signal obscured by bend

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

good morning all, 

I am an absolute novice when it comes to signalling. I have a topic over in the track planning section where i am looking for help with signalling a future track plan. as part of this I have a signal which might need to be positioned around a bend.

 

would I need a repeater of some sort . If so, when did filament bulb repeaters come into use as im using colour light signals. im looking at early 70s wr practice but might flex rule 1 because i love the look of the absolute aspects fillament / led banner repeater.

 

 

[Grovenor]

In the 70s I'm pretty sure they would have been real banner repeaters, the LED version possibly late 90s. Ones with green LEDs not till this century.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

Does anyone have a source for when the filament bulb banner repeaters came in?

 

All I can find online is companies advertising the fact they have modernised network rails signals to leds and how fabulous they are. No one stating how old the filament bulb versions are. 

 

I'm just thinking that perhaps the led version will be much easier to install and be operational. I might look at putting a diffusing layer on the front so it looks more like an older mechanical version without the individual leds. 

[Grovenor]

There seems to be a bit of confusion between filament buld and LED in the question.

Traditional banner repeaters were originally lit by oil lamps with the lamp externally at the back so the actual banner had glass both sides. These could be converted to filament bulbs and would not look any different. But banner signals designed for electric lamps would be glass on the front only and had a dome shaped housing at the rear for the lamp and optics. Usage of these would be dependent on the availability of power supplies but would have been used with colour lights as power would be available. Not sure of dates but I would think from sometime in the 1920s/30s. So definately what you would ecpect in the 70s.

[MartinRS]

I can remember that the banner repeater located on the former GCR line, between Sheffield Victoria and Woodburn (sic) Junction, which lead down to the former MR Nunnery Junction was an electro-mechanical type (backlit by a dual filament bulb) in the mid 1970s.
 

[Cwmtwrch]

In normal use repeaters were before the signal repeated, not after. I presume that your three aspect is green over amber over red. On that basis the previous signal will be off scene to the right, and of the same type, so that it will show amber when the signal round the corner is red, in which case, if there is a repeater won't it be a "home" repeater? Or perhaps the signal protecting the crossover will be just before the curve, so no need for a repeater?

[5BarVT]

I prefer the arrangement shown in the layout thread with the stop signal before the bend.

If this arrangement is so that you can have a banner repeater, then I would push it into the bend a little - round about where the trees on the inside start.

As regards style, for 70s you’re really stuck with the electro magnetic electrically lit version.  The current ones are LED as you say, but prior to that there were fibre optic versions which had the same illuminated dots style.  I think that the earliest they would be is late 80s.

Paul.

[Horsehay Railway Modeller]

23 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

I prefer the arrangement shown in the layout thread with the stop signal before the bend.

If this arrangement is so that you can have a banner repeater, then I would push it into the bend a little - round about where the trees on the inside start.

As regards style, for 70s you’re really stuck with the electro magnetic electrically lit version.  The current ones are LED as you say, but prior to that there were fibre optic versions which had the same illuminated dots style.  I think that the earliest they would be is late 80s.

Paul.

Really useful stuff as always thank you. I think I might move the signal just to where the trees are on the curve. I'm thinking of flexing rule 1 quite hard and using a fibre optic version as it will be so much easier to install and get working.

 

Earliest use of fibre optics I can find was in Birmingham in 1984 which is way out of my 1960s to possibly mid 70s era but I might modify the lense on an absolute aspects led matrix to blur the individual lights a little and hope it looks more like an electromechanical version. Or I might just stuff accuracy for the sake of one signal 😂 

[Michael Hodgson]

I think it is likely that the stop signal would be on the approach side of the overbridge, because of the sighting problem.  WR practice would have meant a semaphore lower quadrant home signal would have been more likely in the 1970s than a 3-aspect colour light.  However the trees might make that equally difficult for sighting reasons. 

 

You have shown the signal in question as "Banner repeater/distant?"  If it were a distant, it would have been Y/G 2-aspect colour light, but would have to be at full braking distance from the Home Signal.  As it presumably isn't that far out, yes, a banner repeater of the electro-machanical type could be provided (and by inference the distant is even further away, off-scene on the other side of the tunnel).

 

I don't think you'd find fibre optics signals as early as the 1970s. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, Horsehay Railway Modeller said:

Really useful stuff as always thank you. I think I might move the signal just to where the trees are on the curve. I'm thinking of flexing rule 1 quite hard and using a fibre optic version as it will be so much easier to install and get working.

 

Earliest use of fibre optics I can find was in Birmingham in 1984 which is way out of my 1960s to possibly mid 70s era but I might modify the lense on an absolute aspects led matrix to blur the individual lights a little and hope it looks more like an electromechanical version. Or I might just stuff accuracy for the sake of one signal 😂 

My office in Birmingham was involved in what I believe may have been the first fibre optic banner at Smethwick Rolfe Street. From memory of what I was doing at the time I would put it at around 1979/80 when we were playing around with the idea. I think producing the prototype was a joint effort between Gresty Road workshops and the S&T lab at Crewe.

[The Stationmaster]

On 23/08/2023 at 22:25, TheSignalEngineer said:

My office in Birmingham was involved in what I believe may have been the first fibre optic banner at Smethwick Rolfe Street. From memory of what I was doing at the time I would put it at around 1979/80 when we were playing around with the idea. I think producing the prototype was a joint effort between Gresty Road workshops and the S&T lab at Crewe.

There was definitely ome installed in. that area arund that time and then one a bit later (early '80s I reckon) somewhere not too far south  of Wolverhamton on the Down - it wasI, recall, very bright.  The Banbury one on the Up Main was also quite early probably  late  1980s/ealy '90s?.

 

The only other type - which I think were unique were the two aspect banner repeaters at paddington for teh platform 'starting signals' which were mounted under teh footbridge.  They were in standard Reading design stencil indicator boxes but illuminated either as a banner shown horizontally or, separately, as a banner in theupper quadrant 'off ' position.  But generally banner repeaters weren't very common in the WR MAS schemees of the 19606'/70s as it seems a lot of effort was taken to site signals where they don't need a repeater although there were very occasional exceptions.

 

There was a standard electr-mechanical banner on the Up Main Playform Line  (No.5 platform) which had repeateda semphore signal  and it was retained but working in the lower quadrant for a 3 aspect colour ligh.  I don't know if it was unique but having a lower quadrant banner repeater for a multiple aspect colour light was definitely a bit unusual.

[TheSignalEngineer]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

somewhere not too far south  of Wolverhamton on the Down -

IIRC there is a banner on the viaduct approaching the signal reading into the platforms at Wolverhampton. Sighting of that signal is obscured by electrification structures and a factory building on Lower Horseley Fields.

Edited August 26, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

IIRC there is a banner on the viaduct approaching the signal reading into the platforms at Wolverhampton. Sighting of that signal is obscured by electrification structures and a factory building on Lower Horseley Fields.

That's the one - thanks.  I don't know what it's like now but it was very bright at night in its early days 

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That's the one - thanks.  I don't know what it's like now but it was very bright at night in its early days 

I don't remember exactly what was done but I think the signals had two lamps illuminating alternate fibres. Some work was done on switching off one lamp when the ambient light dropped below a certain level but I lost track during various reorganisations and don't know the final arrangement.