LSWR Signalling early 1900s

[Stephen Freeman]

I am aware of at least two types of route indicator, (I am not interested in the more modern types for this enquiry) Mechanical (such as at Redhill) and Electrical ( Exmouth) but when did each get introduced? The other thing that has me slightly perplexed are the different forms/styles of Calling on, Siding/Yard entry/exit and shunt arms, they just don't seem to have been able to make their minds up about them, can anybody shed some light please?

[bbishop]

4 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

I am aware of at least two types of route indicator, (I am not interested in the more modern types for this enquiry) Mechanical (such as at Redhill) and Electrical ( Exmouth) but when did each get introduced? The other thing that has me slightly perplexed are the different forms/styles of Calling on, Siding/Yard entry/exit and shunt arms, they just don't seem to have been able to make their minds up about them, can anybody shed some light please?

Stephen, the answer to your first question is - no.  The LSWR didn't use route indicators; the introduction of the "theatre" type at Waterloo was part of the 1936 introduction of colour light signals.

 

The LSWR subsidiary arms were mostly fairly logical.  Shunting ahead of a starting signal on right line was an "S", and shunting ahead on wrong line was a bow tie signal.  These were rare for obvious reasons but were used to shunt across a station throat, Waterloo was an example.  The ringed arm was used for entry into a siding.  These were fairly rare; the LSWR didn't have a phobia concerning facing points (as per the MR) but didn't like to enter a dead end siding from a facing point.  So the siding needed to go somewhere, such as a marshalling yard.  The contentious signal was the calling on arm from a home signal.  The original LSWR practice was a diamond on the arm that could display a red or green light.  This later became a "C" and I can remember one in use at Wimbledon in the 1970s.  There is a record of the Somerset & Dorset (signalled by the LSWR) using a ringed arm but this may have been local practice. for calling on into a siding.

 

Bill

[bécasse]

The LSWR did occasionally use route indicators in the Edwardian era, there would be a signal box lever for each of the indications (typically terminal platform roads) with a further lever to pull off the related signal (or signals if there was a calling-on arm as well as the main one), the signal lever(s) was locked normal until the appropriate indication lever had been pulled and the signal lever then cleared the disc obscuring the route indication as well as clearing the signal arm itself.

 

I have attached a scale drawing of one I measured up over 57 years ago.

[Stephen Freeman]

Not entirely sure at the moment. In Mr Pryers book on page 90 there is a picture of the signal at Redhill. He states "Shows the mechanical route indicators as used by most of the Companies that made up the SR".  Redhill was I think LBSCR so might not apply. Though I understand there was a joint station which used the much earlier form of signal, which I would think of it as a development of.

 

In Southern Infrastructure Vol1 there are photos of the electrical version dated 1926 at Waterloo so I don't think 1936 is right for them and certainly not for the Redhill ones, which would have preceded them.

 

As far as the subsidiary arms perhaps I should have prefaced it to refer to LSWR in the SR period not doubt some confusion could occur in the change over to the use of westinghouse arms.

[bécasse]

Those semi-circular route indicators (IIRC there were a pair of them attached to adjacent semaphore signals at the south end of the up-side island platform) were a Southern Railway installation. They weren't quite unique, I seem to recollect coming across one or two other examples (although I can't now remember where), but they were unusual and may be the result of the cramped space available at the end of the island platform together with sighting issues. The standard LSWR/SR mechanical route indicator was the one that I included a drawing of above, there were examples all over the system, initially oil-lamp illuminated, later, where power was available, electrically lit (much as with banner repeaters).

 

There were also, of course, route indicators attached to certain colour light signals, early installations on the south eastern used one design with a rounded top (examples of which were very rare by BR days), later installations used a Westinghouse "box" design which continued to be installed well into BR days.

Edited September 23, 2023 by bécasse

[Stephen Freeman]

You live and learn. As far as I can see the original Annett design idea was in fact taken up mainly by the GWR but that used after 1920  on SR was a development of the original idea by British Power Railway Signal Company and was electrically worked.

The description fits with such as that at Exmouth.

 

I have found the attached publication which may be of interest.

Route Indicators. Webster, E. Alan. IRSE Proceedings. 1954.pdf

[bécasse]

5 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

You live and learn. As far as I can see the original Annett design idea was in fact taken up mainly by the GWR but that used after 1920  on SR was a development of the original idea by British Power Railway Signal Company and was electrically worked.

The description fits with such as that at Exmouth.

 

I have found the attached publication which may be of interest.

Route Indicators. Webster, E. Alan. IRSE Proceedings. 1954.pdf 977.67 kB · 7 downloads

The LSWR certainly made considerable use of the products of the British Power Railway Signal Company, notably  in their extensive pneumatic (and later electro-pneumatic) installations but I don't believe that the standard LSWR/SR design (as I drew above) originated with the BPRSCo* (whose deigns tended to be distinctive and would have appeared elsewhere, for example on the L&Y) and neither could it be described as electrically worked as certainly many, perhaps most, examples were wire-worked (and often oil lit). It is intriguing that Alan Webster mentions an early LSWR design which appears to work in exactly the same way as the LSWR/SR standard design which he suggests had a S&F connection. I might suggest that what is more likely is that the indicators were actually produced for the LSWR by a number of signalling contractors as it was that company's normal practice to invite tenders to manufacture signalling equipment to the company's design, you will, for example, find its standard "knee" ground frame components with the names of half-a-dozen or so different signalling contractors' names cast into them, all fully interchangeable. It isn't impossible, though, that they were simply manufactured at Wimbledon given that, although they were to be found system wide, they could hardly be described as numerous and I know of only one "off-system" example - at Longmoor Downs on the Longmoor Military Railway.

 

Alan Webster's paper is reasonably comprehensive but I suspect compiled from patent specifications and contractors' catalogues, and the LSWR/SR design would have appeared in neither. Back in 1954 it was still unusual for BR signal engineers to have experience (or comprehensive knowledge) outside their home Region.

 

* the BPRSCo may well have been responsible though for the route indicators attached to some of the Southern Railway's early colour light signals on the SED which had a curved top and which I believe used a complex system of internally reflected light to provide the indication (which never seems to be visible in the rare photographs) - like cluster signals, few examples survived the mid-1950s. The main contractor for the early schemes seems to have been Siemens but they clearly sub-contracted much of the work on the ground (as opposed to boxes) and the BPRSCo seems a significant contender for this work.

[Stephen Freeman]

On the home straight! I have now found the patent details for JP Annetts version from 1902, so now know how it worked and together with a line illustration on rail signs what it looked like.

Now just the decision to go with either it or the version mentioned above, which I now believe to be manufactured by Sykes (became part of Westinghouse), which was in use from about 1910 I believe and not just on the LSWR/SR, I have seen a photo of one on the H&BR as well .annett.pdf

[bécasse]

But that Annett's design one on the H&BR not only doesn't resemble the standard LSWR/SR indicator, it doesn't work in the same way either. The indicator discs in the LSWR/SR version swung up and down through a right angle approximately as shown on the appended drawing below (although I think the blanking disc was pivoted the other side to the indicator discs). The operating mechanism was effectively concealed within the box but was quite simple with the operating wires emerging through a slot in the base of the box.

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by bécasse

[Stephen Freeman]

The  earlier one was in some ways  similar  to that of the GWR, and whilst  the patent was filed I cannot be sure that it was ever used in anger. The later type as above would certainly be easier to model and examples have been captured by the camera.  So I just have to crank up Turbocad to generate some etching masters for the body etc, hoods can be made from some brass tubing suitably mutilated. I think I will have at least 8 to make in 4mm scale of whichever  type. That and the other parts will be keeping me (and PPD - I'm thinking of getting both types done) busy for at least a little while.

[bécasse]

One might have expected the Annett's patent route indicator to have been used by the LBSCR, but it wasn't as that railway normally provided a single home at the approach to the throat of a terminal station together with platform homes mounted back-to-back with each platform starting signal. The pulling off of the relevant platform home informed the driver which platform he was routed to while the pulling off of the approach home gave him the authority to actually go there. At some stations there were also platform distants mounted under the homes, the road being completely clear to the stops if both home and distant were pulled off but partially occupied if only the home was.

 

I have attached two of my photos of the standard LSWR/SR indicator at the entry to Ryde Pier Head which, by post-war years anyway, was electrically operated even though the actual home signal was wire worked.

The black cover disc operating arm can be seen going to the bottom right quadrant so that too (despite my previous doubts) was operated from that quadrant, I have struck out the reference in the previous post. More distant views of the same signal show that the electrically operated and lit version of the indicator had a plain metal back sheet without the frosted glass window required when the indicator was back lit from an external oil lamp. It should also be noted that the electrically worked version required a switch attached to the spectacle plate of the main signal which is clearly visible in the from view above.

Edited September 30, 2023 by bécasse

[Stephen Freeman]

The hood looks a little bent compared to other examples, however best photos yet. I have included the indicator (both types) in a design for etching, my requirement will be for a 4mm version, along with other parts that I will be needing.

 

Thanks again.

Whilst looking for something else (alwasy the way) I chanced upon a photo of a model of this signal I built a few years ago in 4mm scale, the indicator was a non-working one though. I will see if I can find it again.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Stephen Freeman

[Tom Burnham]

For what it's worth, the mechanical route indicators at Redhill appear in this photo.  I'd assume they're a Southern (Railway or Region) installation, as this one is on a rail-built post signal with a corrugated arm  -

 

[Stephen Freeman]

On 06/10/2023 at 17:06, Tom Burnham said:

For what it's worth, the mechanical route indicators at Redhill appear in this photo.  I'd assume they're a Southern (Railway or Region) installation, as this one is on a rail-built post signal with a corrugated arm  -

 

Thanks but I knew about this one, Pryer is a bit vague on them and I can find no evidence of them on the LSWR.

[Stephen Freeman]

On another matter, does anybody know of the dimensions or a drawing of the LSWR Calling-on arm? I know what they looked like but not sure on the dimensions. Pryer refers to them as in use on the Western section. It is the diamond one with two aspects therein. The problem is that there appears to be no commercially available etching for them Wizard don't do them and the Fretcetera one is the Eastern section one. I can put them on the next missive to PPD if only I know the info?

[bécasse]

There is a small drawing in Beal's "Modelling the Old Time Railways".

[Stephen Freeman]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

There is a small drawing in Beal's "Modelling the Old Time Railways".

Whilst I have seen many references to the Rev Beal in years long ago but nothing recently and have never actually seen them. There is a drawing in Pryer but not dimensions. There is an excellent photo in Wallis Southern Infrastructure vol 1 P22 of one at Gas Works Junction, Bournemouth so in the absence of anything else definite I will be going with that. In fact the  design is done, just got to finish the rest of the design.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Stephen Freeman

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

On another matter, does anybody know of the dimensions or a drawing of the LSWR Calling-on arm? I know what they looked like but not sure on the dimensions. Pryer refers to them as in use on the Western section. It is the diamond one with two aspects therein. The problem is that there appears to be no commercially available etching for them Wizard don't do them and the Fretcetera one is the Eastern section one. I can put them on the next missive to PPD if only I know the info?

Probably in nock's series on Pre-Groiuping signals which covered just about every majot British company/. ytouble is finding the articles as they were published a long time ago.

[bécasse]

I would have included these drawings, which apparently originated from O.S.Nock, earlier but I was having problems with my scanner. Beal's book was published in 1955 and he states that the drawings first appeared in The Model Engineer "long ago", so one can safely assume that they are out of copyright. The vertical lattice displacement on the signal post is (most unusually) precisely correct so one may assume that the other drawings are correct even without stated dimensions. To avoid any confusion I will add that these are specifically drawings of LSWR signals -

"A" is a running signal, either a stop arm (without the Collingly-Welch reflector) or a notched distant arm (with it), both painted red with a white stripe/chevron,

"B" is a siding signal, painted red with a black ring and white dot,

"C" is a calling on signal painted red (including the diamond) with a white stripe,

"D" is a shunt-ahead signal painted red with a black S,

"E" is a wrong road signal painted red,

"F" is a (later pattern, c1900 onwards) ground signal.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by bécasse
descriptions added

[Michael Hodgson]

The top arm on that lot (A) looks odd, because it shows a home arm with (in dotted form) a fishtailed distant arm superimposed, but the protrusion to the right is a Coligny-Welch reflector which some companies used only on distant arms, where it served to distinguish them at night from stop signals - before the change to yellow arms and lights on distants (in the early 1920s)

 

The trouble with subsidiary signals is that usage of particular styles varied between companies.  For what it's worth, this is my understanding of the diagram above:

 

type B would be used as a calling on or draw ahead signal on the SDJR

or (but with a white stripe rather than the white dot) a calling on arm on the LBSCR

ringed arms were used by several companies including LSWR to indicate goods lines or sidings

 

type C was used by LSWR as a calling on signal (showed small red light through top hole or green through lower one)

 

type D was used by several companies for shunting ahead (into the section past the starting signal) . 

The S was usually white.

 

type E "bow tie" was used by SDJR & LSWR for wrong road movements

(but on the GNR as calling on or on the GER as draw-ahead)

 

type F was used for shunting signals (mostly later converted to standard discs) on LSWR and SR

[Stephen Freeman]

Thanks, pretty much confirms what I thought. I would add that according to Pryer, there was a wrong line version of Ground Signal F.

[bécasse]

18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

type F was used for shunting signals (mostly later converted to standard discs) on LSWR and SR

None of these were converted to standard discs, they were replaced by new Westinghouse "SR style" disc or miniature arm ground signals in the early 1930s. Ironically a few of the earlier Stevens flap signals (not shown) outlived them.

 

One of the results of their relatively early replacement is that almost no clear photographs of them exist although they appear in quite a few more general views. Most, if not all, closely resemble ground signals being installed on the L&YR  during the same period suggesting that they may have been a proprietary product of either the Railway Signal Company or the British Power/Pneumatic Railway Signal Company, both of whom were contemporary suppliers to both railways.

[Stephen Freeman]

The illustration in Pryer of the wrong line ground signal does not really resemble anything in the excellent L&Y  book on signalling, so will be sticking with Pryer for the moment.

It's a pity that the LSWR and many others have not been covered as well as the L&Y. 

[bécasse]

I have potentially identified two different designs of ground signal as installed by the LSWR in the early years of the 20th century. The company had started to use lattice rather than wooden posts in the mid-1890s as the North Cornwall line was being completed, so the first change in ground signal design (from Stevens' flaps to a miniature semaphore) may be contemporary with that and certainly the new design was installed on the Meon Valley line. The photo below, unfortunately not very clear, of West Meon in 1906 shows two which are obviously miniature semaphores mounted on wooden posts which finish in a ^ shape, one post just seems to be painted white but the other has the lower part black(?) coming to a point on each side. That latter style of painting can be seen on photos of similar ground signals at other LSWR locations in the Edwardian era. These may well be the type of ground signal for which Nock provides a drawing of the arm - "F" above.

There are also photos of other LSWR locations during the same period which appear to show ground signals of a similar style to the L&YR RSC ones marketed by Wizard. Unfortunately again the photos aren't that clear and every one that I have seen shows the signal from the back leaving confirmation of the arm shape uncertain. However what is certain is that their posts finish with a shaped cap and could well be cast-iron.

As I said before, both these styles of ground signals seem to have been replaced in their entirety in the early 1930s and that is why Pryer failed to mention them.

 

[Stephen Freeman]

13 hours ago, bécasse said:

I have potentially identified two different designs of ground signal as installed by the LSWR in the early years of the 20th century. The company had started to use lattice rather than wooden posts in the mid-1890s as the North Cornwall line was being completed, so the first change in ground signal design (from Stevens' flaps to a miniature semaphore) may be contemporary with that and certainly the new design was installed on the Meon Valley line. The photo below, unfortunately not very clear, of West Meon in 1906 shows two which are obviously miniature semaphores mounted on wooden posts which finish in a ^ shape, one post just seems to be painted white but the other has the lower part black(?) coming to a point on each side. That latter style of painting can be seen on photos of similar ground signals at other LSWR locations in the Edwardian era. These may well be the type of ground signal for which Nock provides a drawing of the arm - "F" above.

There are also photos of other LSWR locations during the same period which appear to show ground signals of a similar style to the L&YR RSC ones marketed by Wizard. Unfortunately again the photos aren't that clear and every one that I have seen shows the signal from the back leaving confirmation of the arm shape uncertain. However what is certain is that their posts finish with a shaped cap and could well be cast-iron.

As I said before, both these styles of ground signals seem to have been replaced in their entirety in the early 1930s and that is why Pryer failed to mention them.

 

Unfortunately they would appear to be different to that shown in Pryer, basically looks like the early semaphore arm which pre-dates the Westinghouse disc, but according to Pryer has a red x on white background. However that is just a line illustration, they appear to have escaped the photographers lense. The red x wouldn't have fitted on the Railway Signalling arm and the lens were different.