Unidentified panelled coach on Cardigan branch

[David C]

If any coach expert has a copy of M R C Price's "The Whitland & Cardigan Railway", would they mind turning to page 78 and having a look at the top photo? This shows a view of Llanfyrnach station with a 4575 plus part of a coach at the platform. This is panelled and all one colour, which is clear from the print (from Lens of Sutton) even though it is b & w. There's a 16T mineral plus a van in the yard, which would suggest the date as being post nationalisation, although obviously this is not conclusive. Has anyone any idea what the prototype might be? Passenger trains on the Cardigan branch post 1948 tended to consist mostly of a single brake coach, initially non corridor apart from the odd through coach, with corridors only appearing at the very end. I have long been fascinated by this very remote line, particularly it's operation. The timetable of my own BLT is based on that of Cardigan, even though it is completely freelance. Hence, my curiosity about this panelled vehicle.

 

The photo only shows a bit of the coach, so identifying it will be quite a challenge. 

 

Thanks in advance

 

David C

 

 

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, David C said:

This shows a view of Llanfyrnach station with a 4575 plus part of a coach at the platform.

 

I have seen photos of 4 wheelers in use (actually on the cover of the book i think!) - if you can't see much could be them?

 

The only thing I can immediately think of that would date a 4575, other than livery which I presume you would have mentioned, is a taller safety valve cover. A 45xx would have been easier to age as they changed more!

Edited September 26, 2023 by Hal Nail

[David C]

Thanks for responding. Yes, 4 wheelers were used on the Cardigan line and I suppose it could be one. However, I believe they had all been withdrawn by nationalisation apart from a few colliers' trains. The photo could have been taken in the 1930s, but the 16 ton steel mineral belies that. I know steel wagons pre-dated WW2, but they must have been pretty rare. As regards the 4575, the angle the photo was taken from is very acute, so much so that neither the safety valve not the livery can be made out. 5539 was at Whitland between 1935-57 according to brdatabase, but there are photos of others on the branch: 5549, 5550 and 5520, for example, but they were there in later years so far as I can make out. Somehow, I think, but can't prove, the photo was taken post 1947 which makes it very unlikely the coach is a 4 wheeler. Of course, it could be a passenger brake van (one of the K diagrams K15 or 16) but the positioning of the doors are different. 

 

David C

[Hal Nail]

2 minutes ago, David C said:

Thanks for responding. Yes, 4 wheelers were used on the Cardigan line and I suppose it could be one. However, I believe they had all been withdrawn by nationalisation apart from a few colliers' trains. The photo could have been taken in the 1930s, but the 16 ton steel mineral belies that. I know steel wagons pre-dated WW2, but they must have been pretty rare. As regards the 4575, the angle the photo was taken from is very acute, so much so that neither the safety valve not the livery can be made out. 5539 was at Whitland between 1935-57 according to brdatabase, but there are photos of others on the branch: 5549, 5550 and 5520, for example, but they were there in later years so far as I can make out. Somehow, I think, but can't prove, the photo was taken post 1947 which makes it very unlikely the coach is a 4 wheeler. Of course, it could be a passenger brake van (one of the K diagrams K15 or 16) but the positioning of the doors are different. 

 

David C

If you have bought the book, I think you are allowed to reproduce a snippet of the photo for research purposes as that counts as personal use? I may be wrong but as a photographer my concern is people blatantly nicking things rather than using them legitimately.

[Penrhos1920]

I don’t think it’s GWR.  For a while I thought it was a bars 1 toplight until I realised that there’s only 1 waist moulding and not a waist panel with mouldings above and below.

[The Johnster]

Though by the time steel-bodied minerals were in the background of photos, some of the panelling may well have been panelled in.  The plot thickens; the game is at least 12 inches, Watson!

[Fat Controller]

It couldn't be one of the coaches which were built for the Burry Port and Gwendreath Valley  in GWR days, but only spent a short period there before passenger services ceased, could it?

[Penrhos1920]

4 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

It couldn't be one of the coaches which were built for the Burry Port and Gwendreath Valley  in GWR days, but only spent a short period there before passenger services ceased, could it?

 

They were panel-less steel bodies built in 1939

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 there’s only 1 waist moulding and not a waist panel with mouldings above and below.

 

That sounds a bit LNWR? But the date of the photo may be stretching it a bit. What's the roof profile?

[Penrhos1920]

[Compound2632]

No, not LNWR! But it's been re-panelled below the waist, probably in steel, loosing the lower waist beading in the process. Likewise the right-hand of the double doors, which has lost all its beading. (If it originated with this vehicle!)

[Coach bogie]

The right hand door handle set at about 45 degrees is LMS in my opinion. the same right hand door has lost all it's panelling and ventilator and could be a replacement along with the handle. There is no LMS style lookout I would expect to see. With that depth of top eave panel and the high position door grab handle, I would suggest Midland Railway so it may be absorbed stock which has be subject to various LMS 'improvements'.

 

I do not have my non GWR books down here so cannot go further than that.

 

Mike Wilthire

[Penrhos1920]

It’s a LMS period 1 50’ BG. 

 

[David C]

Thank you for your contributions, chaps - particularly Penrhos1920. Fascinating that such an obscure and remote branch should see an early LMS BG trundling up and down on it's metals! On the other hand, I have seen photos of ex LMS vehicles on other ex GWR branches, such as Kingsbridge and Launceston (I think!). Whether they were working on regular diagrams or were merely visiting on  special through services, I don't know. Woodstowe (my British layout) is operated using Cardigan's real life timetable as it was in early to mid 50s and although it (the layout, I mean!) is entirely fictional, I'm now wondering about acquiring the odd ex LMS coach or two.

 

David C

[bécasse]

In the 1950s and early 1960s the farther flung parts of the Western Region made a lot of use of ex-LMS and similar stock. I have always suspected that they were popular because they were fitted with slam door catches (whereas ex-GWR vehicles weren't) - although that wouldn't be significant for a BG.

[johnofwessex]

The 'Branch' on the S&D had amongst other things a Thompson 3rd brake

[The Johnster]

'Pool' NPCCS would turn up Martini style; anytime anyplace, anywhere post Nationalisation, and it is well known that there were special empty stock workings throughout the early morning hours of January 1st 1948 delivering supplies of SR PMVs to every corner of the system...  The previous system of NPCCS working 'off company' and being returned by the next avaialble service, empty if a load couldn't be found, was abandoned and a pool system introduced for any such vehicles not reserved for circuit or booked passenger train work.  A requirement for a bogie van with shelves could be fullfilled by a BG, GUV, PLV, Siphon, Pigeon Van, &c.  A BG that found itself on a branch line might spend some time there before finding it's way back on to the main system, or disappear back into the general melee the same day it arrived, 'pool' was unpredictable and 'luck of the draw' by definition!