Help signalling early 50s suburban West Riding GNR Station

[Stephen Freeman]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Nothing wrong with a yellow arm disc in that location - it is in factthe classic siting for a yellow arm disc

but not sure it was a thing in GNR days will look in the book.

[Nick C]

It might be a silly question, but how would the siding top right be shunted? In a prototype situation it'd probably be worked by horse (or pinch bar) to get wagons in and out of the headshunt, but that doesn't work in a model...

 

I'm assuming the rest of the yard would be shunted by up trains, leaving the rest of the train in the up platfom then drawing past 11.

[Stephen Freeman]

1 hour ago, Stephen Freeman said:

but not sure it was a thing in GNR days will look in the book.

Having looked at Vanns, I would say not a thing in GNR days, the LNER may have "upgraded" by plonking more modern looking discs on them, though still operating by rotation but by then they might well have looked a little different as well.

[bécasse]

Yellow shunt discs/arms (other than on the Great Western who didn't use them) were introduced as part of the agreed post-grouping signalling reforms c1930. You won't find them before that date and it took a year or two before they became commonplace. BR(W) started using them in the early 1950s, seemingly reluctantly as they never became widespread on ex-GWR lines.

 

The GNR was a yellow pioneer in another respect, though, as it started to paint distant signals yellow (with a straight white bar rather than a black chevron) just before the Great War. It would be another dozen years or so before yellow distant arms became the norm elsewhere.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

From "Railway Signalling and Communication" 1st edition circa 1945 as there is no publication date. A book based on lectures given by mainly LNER signal engineers. 

 

Looking at AJ's plan this is very similar and the basic principles could be applied. 

Makes sense in the ideal world however the tpo opography and the presence of things like bridges and tunnels can ibevitably affect the siting (and sighting)  of the Section Signals (3 and 11).

 

Apart from that all the pointwork is within  the Clearing Point and the Section Signals might well be less than full normal Clearing Point distance from the Home Signals.  Both of these features, particularly the former, will impact on line capacity although in many cases that wouldn't be a problem but it definitely would on any busy route.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Nick C said:

It might be a silly question, but how would the siding top right be shunted? In a prototype situation it'd probably be worked by horse (or pinch bar) to get wagons in and out of the headshunt, but that doesn't work in a model...

 

I'm assuming the rest of the yard would be shunted by up trains, leaving the rest of the train in the up platfom then drawing past 11.

Easy - tow shunting might have been permitted, or a capstan (depending very much on the purpose of the siding), or pinch bar, or possibly a horse.  The cheaprest ways were wither towing or pinch bar and an awful lot of thinsg were done the cheapest as labour was dirt cheap - men cost a lot less than a horse.

[Flying Pig]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Easy - tow shunting might have been permitted, or a capstan (depending very much on the purpose of the siding), or pinch bar, or possibly a horse.  The cheaprest ways were wither towing or pinch bar and an awful lot of thinsg were done the cheapest as labour was dirt cheap - men cost a lot less than a horse.

 

I think the question was about how it will be worked on the model, where those methods aren't really available.  It is inconveniently sited at the back of the layout, so anything that involves hand operation will be tricky and risk damage.

[Flying Pig]

Possibly extend the private siding under the bridge to suggest a more extensive system and use something like a 48DS?  No fiddling required, just a hidden spur.

[AJ427]

On 02/10/2023 at 12:24, Clive Mortimore said:

Is there any need for number 2? I can't see what it protecting. Number 3 is the signal protecting the point work and isn't that then the home signal and number 4 is the starter (or in modern terms the section signal)? 

 

On 02/10/2023 at 13:18, Clive Mortimore said:

From "Railway Signalling and Communication" 1st edition circa 1945 as there is no publication date. A book based on lectures given by mainly LNER signal engineers. 

 

Looking at AJ's plan this is very similar and the basic principles could be applied. 

 

Hmm. Good point. Didn't think of that. 🤔

 

On 02/10/2023 at 12:51, Jeremy Cumberland said:

2 could have two functions. It could be a relic from the days when the Board of Trade required trains stopped in platforms to be protected by a signal. It could also be there so that 3 is the clearing point and shunting can take place without needing to block back. Clearly the distance from 2 to 3 is less than 440 yards, but we are used to such compression on model railways. I have no idea about the GNR, but similar arrangements were common elsewhere.

 

And this also has operational merit. I suppose I could not bother with no2. Choices. choices.

Edited October 3, 2023 by AJ427

[AJ427]

On 02/10/2023 at 14:33, Nick C said:

It might be a silly question, but how would the siding top right be shunted? In a prototype situation it'd probably be worked by horse (or pinch bar) to get wagons in and out of the headshunt, but that doesn't work in a model...

 

I'm assuming the rest of the yard would be shunted by up trains, leaving the rest of the train in the up platfom then drawing past 11.

 

I had in mind a simple pickup/drop off scenario whereby loco pulls stock (empty vans or full coal wagons) into the head shunt and then propels them into the siding. Later the reverse occurs (full wagons or empty coal wagons). I may have a wagon turntable running into a warehouse (probably non-working and still under consideration). I'll be using S&W couplings so no issues with reaching over/handling.

 

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

Possibly extend the private siding under the bridge to suggest a more extensive system and use something like a 48DS?  No fiddling required, just a hidden spur.

 

But I do like this suggestion and it gives a use for one of those industrial locos I've bought but currently have no real use for!😃

[Flying Pig]

11 minutes ago, AJ427 said:

 

I had in mind a simple pickup/drop off scenario whereby loco pulls stock (empty vans or full coal wagons) into the head shunt and then propels them into the siding. Later the reverse occurs (full wagons or empty coal wagons). I may have a wagon turntable running into a warehouse (probably non-working and still under consideration). I'll be using S&W couplings so no issues with reaching over/handling.

 

 

But I do like this suggestion and it gives a use for one of those industrial locos I've bought but currently have no real use for!😃

 

In your original scenario, the exchange would have to be done by the Down goods, because the loco of the Up goods would be on the wrong side of the wagons.  This does have the advantage of giving the Down goods something to do, as otherwise the goods yard is set out for shunting from the Up line.  If a private loco is taking traffic from the Up side headshunt then that will be a job for the Up goods as well.  Though you could do both of course.

[Nick C]

3 minutes ago, AJ427 said:

 

I had in mind a simple pickup/drop off scenario whereby loco pulls stock (empty vans or full coal wagons) into the head shunt and then propels them into the siding. Later the reverse occurs (full wagons or empty coal wagons). 

That'd make for a pretty awkward shunt - the up train can't do it at the same time as the main yard as the loco is on the wrong end, and for the down train to do it you'd have to leave the rest of the train on the main line in advance of the down home ( @The Stationmaster would that be common practice? I would have though they would have preferred to have the train protected by fixed signals?) and shunt across the crossover, then the headshunt, then the siding...

 

As for your signal 2, while I'm not familair with GNR practice, it was certainly LSWR practice to have a signal there - I can think of several examples locally with a signal protecting the platform despite no pointwork between home and starter.

[AJ427]

Originally the turnouts at the up end were further right, partially on the curve. This wasn't working too well with stock running through the too tight curvature so the layout was altered into the current position. In the process, an exit/loop from the down siding to the down line was removed as I deemed it a bit too short. In hindsight, this was a mistake as it would have allowed shunting from both up and down lines. With a bit of re-jigging I've managed to reinstate it. Now a down train can shunt the down siding and also drop wagons into the upper factory sidings - either leaving them in the (currently labelled) 'head shunt' or propelling them into the 'exchange siding'. An up train can shunt the down siding and also drop wagons into the upper 'head shunt'. A factory shunter collects the wagons and takes them into the hidden internal railway system beyond the bridge. After all that the signalling is as follows (hopefully 🙂).

 

1. Up Distant (off stage)
2. Up Home (retained for now)
3. Up Starter
4. Up Advanced Starter (off stage)
5. Spare
6. Spare
7. Spare
8. Disc to Down Siding
9. Points (Down Siding Trap Exit to Down Main)
10. Disc Down Siding to Down Main
11. Disc Down Siding to Up line (yellow, to allow moves to head shunt)
12. Points (Down Siding Exit & Slip)
13. Disc Down to Up line
14. Points (Crossover Slip & Up)
15. Disc Up Siding to Up line
16. Points (Up Siding Trap & Exit to Up Main)
17. Disc Up to up siding/crossover
18. Spare
19. Spare
20. Down Advanced Starter (off stage)
21. Down Starter
22. Down Home
23. Down Distant (off stage)

 

Note, I've retained the No2. Up Home for the time being as I think Nick C's advice is sound and the sighting in this built-up urban area (assumed to be Bradford) is generally poor with numerous tunnels and cuttings.

No10 is a ground disc that controls exit to the down main from the new down siding. Would a semaphore be better for this (off the same post as the Down Starter)? If so, would this affect the numbering?

I've included an Advanced Down Starter to enable a train to move beyond the curved No9 exit turnout and set back into the siding. Is that correct?

I'm unsure how big standard frames came. Would 24 levers be correct?

I should note that it's assumed that the off-stage signals are a prototypical distance away from their on-stage counterparts!

Stopping trains on these lines were generally short - usually 2 coaches hauled by an Ivatt N1 or a J50 (or sometimes a tender loco) with a pick-up freight of 10-15 wagons would be typical.

 

Thanks in advance.
 

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Nick C said:

That'd make for a pretty awkward shunt - the up train can't do it at the same time as the main yard as the loco is on the wrong end, and for the down train to do it you'd have to leave the rest of the train on the main line in advance of the down home ( @The Stationmaster would that be common practice? I would have though they would have preferred to have the train protected by fixed signals?) and shunt across the crossover, then the headshunt, then the siding...

 

As for your signal 2, while I'm not familair with GNR practice, it was certainly LSWR practice to have a signal there - I can think of several examples locally with a signal protecting the platform despite no pointwork between home and starter.

Feasible but unusual.  Normally stations were laid out to be shu ted in one direction or the other the normal excotion being thatn there was often a way wgere a train going in teh opposite direction could make an easy pickup of outweard wagons later in teh daym

 

In a real worls situation like ths a lot depended on what that 'wrong way round sidings was used for plus the ge eral shunting arranement.  For example thater was a 'wrong way round' siding at Ashburtoo which no doubt challebg nged modellers for years but in teh real world was simply dealt with because it was authorised to be tow shunted. if we'r only talking one or two wagons then oinch bars were quick and cheap but a busier siding might handling mpre wagons might use a capstan (in the longer term chepaer than horses especially if a hydraulic or electricity supply was available.  A prvate sidings might have some sort of small shunting engine while some even used a road vehicle of some sort - especially adpted tractors - to move wagons.

 

I would think - except for very specia;l or particularly busy customers - using the engine ofa train hoing in teh opposite direction was probably one of teh rarer instances.  The other alternative is to adda second crossover and all the trip engine to run round its train.. 

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, AJ427 said:

Originally the turnouts at the up end were further right, partially on the curve. This wasn't working too well with stock running through the too tight curvature so the layout was altered into the current position. In the process, an exit/loop from the down siding to the down line was removed as I deemed it a bit too short. In hindsight, this was a mistake as it would have allowed shunting from both up and down lines. With a bit of re-jigging I've managed to reinstate it. Now a down train can shunt the down siding and also drop wagons into the upper factory sidings - either leaving them in the (currently labelled) 'head shunt' or propelling them into the 'exchange siding'. An up train can shunt the down siding and also drop wagons into the upper 'head shunt'. A factory shunter collects the wagons and takes them into the hidden internal railway system beyond the bridge. After all that the signalling is as follows (hopefully 🙂).

 

1. Up Distant (off stage)
2. Up Home (retained for now)
3. Up Starter
4. Up Advanced Starter (off stage)
5. Spare
6. Spare
7. Spare
8. Disc to Down Siding
9. Points (Down Siding Trap Exit to Down Main)
10. Disc Down Siding to Down Main
11. Disc Down Siding to Up line (yellow, to allow moves to head shunt)
12. Points (Down Siding Exit & Slip)
13. Disc Down to Up line
14. Points (Crossover Slip & Up)
15. Disc Up Siding to Up line
16. Points (Up Siding Trap & Exit to Up Main)
17. Disc Up to up siding/crossover
18. Spare
19. Spare
20. Down Advanced Starter (off stage)
21. Down Starter
22. Down Home
23. Down Distant (off stage)

 

Note, I've retained the No2. Up Home for the time being as I think Nick C's advice is sound and the sighting in this built-up urban area (assumed to be Bradford) is generally poor with numerous tunnels and cuttings.

No10 is a ground disc that controls exit to the down main from the new down siding. Would a semaphore be better for this (off the same post as the Down Starter)? If so, would this affect the numbering?

I've included an Advanced Down Starter to enable a train to move beyond the curved No9 exit turnout and set back into the siding. Is that correct?

I'm unsure how big standard frames came. Would 24 levers be correct?

I should note that it's assumed that the off-stage signals are a prototypical distance away from their on-stage counterparts!

Stopping trains on these lines were generally short - usually 2 coaches hauled by an Ivatt N1 or a J50 (or sometimes a tender loco) with a pick-up freight of 10-15 wagons would be typical.

 

Thanks in advance.
 

One simple solution preseents itself of course - and that is that ths headshunt is used to exchange traffic with the private siding owner's engine shunting wagons for exchange to/from it.

 

All your 0ther items where you have queries are ik  although I do wonder it a through siding at a smaller station would be typical in the era you are modelling? 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

What's the purpse of 21? 20 has got to be at least a train length away, so 21 is hardly needed for sighting, I'd have thought. If it protects the down sidings exit, it wants to be further back,

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

What's the purpse of 21? 20 has got to be at least a train length away, so 21 is hardly needed for sighting, I'd have thought. If it protects the down sidings exit, it wants to be further back,

Yes it definitely needs to be further back to protect the down sidings exit. It would allow a train to draw up to 21, detach the loco to collect a (fitted) van from the down sidings and attach it to the front of its train before proceeding. 

[Flying Pig]

13 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Yes it definitely needs to be further back to protect the down sidings exit. It would allow a train to draw up to 21, detach the loco to collect a (fitted) van from the down sidings and attach it to the front of its train before proceeding. 

 

Any kind of wagon, surely? Too much shunting involved in a stopping goods for the brakes to be connected, even if it contained fitted vehicles.  No guarantee that the loco would be fitted either.

[bécasse]

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Any kind of wagon, surely? Too much shunting involved in a stopping goods for the brakes to be connected, even if it contained fitted vehicles.  No guarantee that the loco would be fitted either.

You are right, of course, I was thinking of a stopping passenger train possibly picking up a van (return empty newspaper van?) , but for the pick-up goods such shunt moves would be a normal activity, dropping off as well as picking up.