The Leek and Manifold Valley into the 21st Century.

[Nearholmer]

I think I’d go for lead or copper mining, and draw inspiration both from local Peak District mines and from Snailbeach Mine, which is well preserved and very interesting to visit, and assuming a connection to the L&M “lower down”.

 

Could you make the lower front scene the point where the twisty and steep quarry branch joins the L&M proper, maybe having the ore tipped from small wagons into SG ones carried on transporters, and have the L&M siding enter from a “fiddle stick” poking out from the side of the scene?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Nearholmer

[AY Mod]

Another note on the dairy and cheese front the Duke of Devonshire had a creamery just a few miles beyond Hulme End at Hartington which was sold to the Milk Marketing Board, then Dairy Crest and only closed just over a decade ago - https://www.urbanography.org.uk/Dove-Creamery/Index.shtml

 

The current Hartington Creamery that produce some absolutely superb cheeses is a few miles further away but they do own the original dairy shop by the village green and pond. One of my favourite shops as you can probably tell.

[DavidBird]

33 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think I’d go for lead or copper mining, and draw inspiration both from local Peak District mines and from Snailbeach Mine, which is well preserved and very interesting to visit, and assuming a connection to the L&M “lower down”.

 

Could you make the lower front scene the point where the twisty and steep quarry branch joins the L&M proper, maybe having the ore tipped from small wagons into SG ones carried on transporters, and have the L&M siding enter from a “fiddle stick” poking out from the side of the scene?

 

 

 

 

 

You, or I, or both of us might be telepathic.  As you were typing that, I was thinking the same - a generously laid out through station with fiddlesticks on each side.

 

But I was hoping to make it operable and self contained, which it wouldn't be if I needed the extensions. Besides,  I quite like the mind-bending aspect of the left and right main line going to different locations,  but the left and right mine branch being parts of the same line...

[DavidBird]

I seem to have changed my mind more often than my underwear* between the oval and two cassettes on either side, but I think I've settled with this plan.  I do really like the idea of the layout being self-contained, with a cassette removal from the back (top).

 

In the top left corner will be a mine scene, possibly by a 3-D "decoupage" method of the scene in the header photo of the Peak District Mines Historical Society page here https://pdmhs.co.uk/magpie-mine-peak-district/ and with the Kernow N-gauge Graham Farish Scenecraft Derelict Engine House as a bit of forced perspective.

 

The green line is the edge of the "plateau", the land will slope gently down from top left towards the green line, with a dry-stone wall around the edge.  The purple/lilac line is the bottom of the valley side, between the two lines, the ground will slope about 45 degrees (or even steeper depending on what gradient I can get on the mine branch and how it actually looks). 

 

The ground will be more-or-less flat between the lilac line and the front of the layout and the the tan line in the bottom right corner which is the dried-up river bed.

 

The trees on the right will have 2 or 3 "commercial" models of recognisable tree species at the front with home-made generic trees behind into the top right corner, to hide the tracks' disappearance.

 

 

I hope to be able to preserve the essence of the L&MVLR with the limestone dale scenery with dried-up river, the minimal station facilities (with ostentatious sign - 7mm GWR-style possibly?) and of course the standard gauge siding in the bottom left.  I have been promised a few kits of the transporter wagons, these are intended to be hauled while on the main line and only shunted on the straight from the goods loop to the siding.  If the long rigid 4w wheelbase actually does preclude operation around the settrack curves, then the layout (or at least this iteration of it) will be definitely set in the preservation/tourist-only era, although there may be a 4-wheel PO wagon posed on the siding "for display purposes".

 

I may need to tweak the overall width to ensure that stock overhang doesn't foul the sides of the box and the radius of the mine branch on the left to allow sufficient clearance between the back straight of the branch and the removable cassette.

 

I have the Peco 009 Starter track pack, I am now confident enough in the plan to be purchasing the extra track required.  More photos to follow when I've got something to show.

 

* Not really 🫢

Edited November 28, 2023 by DavidBird

[DavidBird]

Progress has, unfortunately been "glacial", if not "geological". The kitchen table work area has been unavailable due important things like eating, and its been far too cold for the attic.

 

Yesterday  i made another mistake. 

 

The baseboard box suffered both from soot from the lasercutting and slight staining to the surface of the ply.  I was planning on varnishing the outside to preserve a nice timber effect, but a coat of varnish would have sealed in the stains.

A bit of hand sanding didn't seem to have any effect so after Christmas I borrowed an electric belt sander. This initially didn't have any effect, so I used a bit more pressure. 

It was at this stage I realised I was actually removing the outer layer of good quality ply, and what i thought was slight surface staining was really dark blemishes on the second layer of lower quality ply.

 

 

 

The finish is now worse than it was before, so painting it will be.

 

Any suggestions on colours? Plain black, dark green, Madder Red or even Primrose Yellow?

[Chris Williamson]

Beware Belt Sanders!  Fitted with a course grade belt they can remove more material than you might want to before you've realised it.

 

I've seen medium to dark grey used to good effect on baseboards.  Grey usually has the benefit of being neutral with respect to any scenery that runs up to the edge of the board.   Dark olive green would be second choice, but risks jarring with scenic colours.  Black is too harsh and quickly shows marks.

 

A final thought regarding your most excellent track plan: do use the AnyRail gradient checking facility to ensure the climb to the Mine isn't too steep.  I have a gradient of about 2.7% up to the Mine on Balley-yn-Eas.  In practice it couldn't have been any steeper and still operate.  Based on this experience, if I was to build another layout with a gradient, I really wouldn't want to go over 2%, 2.5% at the very most.  You can afford to be steeper on the straight but not on any curves.  Such a gradient will also be very visible and can look too steep regardless.  When checking clearances where tracks cross, don't forget to allow for the thickness of the material carrying the track as well as the tallest loco or item of rolling stock you intend to run under the upper track.

 

Oh, and regarding Flanders and Swann: there's plenty of railway related dales scenery to inspire you both east and west of Miller's Dale for Tideswell...

  

Edited January 15 by Chris Williamson

[DavidBird]

On 13/01/2024 at 16:08, Chris Williamson said:

Beware Belt Sanders!  Fitted with a course grade belt they can remove more material than might want to before you've realised it.

 

I've seen medium to dark grey used to good effect on baseboards.  Grey usually has the benefit of being neutral with respect to any scenery that runs up to the edge of the board.   Dark olive green would be second choice, but risks jarring with scenic colours.  Black is too harsh and quickly shows marks.

 

A final thought regarding your most excellent track plan: do use the AnyRail gradient checking facility to ensure the climb to the Mine isn't too steep.  I have a gradient of about 2.7% up to the Mine on Balley-yn-Eas.  In practice it couldn't have been any steeper and still operate.  Based on this experience, if I was to build another layout with a gradient, I really wouldn't want to go over 2%, 2.5% at the very most.  You can afford to be steeper on the straight but not on any curves.  Such a gradient will also be very visible and can look too steep regardless.  When checking clearances where tracks cross, don't forget to allow for the thickness of the material carrying the track as well as the tallest loco or item of rolling stock you intend to run under the upper track.

 

Oh, and regarding Flanders and Swann: there's plenty of railway related dales scenery to inspire you both east and west of Miller's Dale for Tideswell...

  

 

Would that be Ocean Grey or Military Grey? Or is it the other way round?

 

Thanks for the tips about the gradients. I still need to do a gradient test to see just what a Quarry Hunslet with 3 tipper wagons will do. I've got a set of 6 V-tippers from Nigel Brooks, my 1st experience of 3D printing.

 https://brooks3dmodels.com/#HDVT1

I'm pretty sure that it will manage something quite steep, but I'd not considered if it would look too steep for the setting. A cardboard mock up is needed before cutting any polystyrene.

[Nearholmer]

I’m curious about this gradient business, because real narrow gauge lines have no fear of gradients, often combined with horribly sharp curves, that would be considered serious trouble on most standard gauge railways. The Leighton Buzzard LR has a significant 1:25 (4%) section, which didn’t deter heavy sand trains, for instance, and the Darjeeling and Himalayas gets into similar gradients on tight curves. If you look at old brochures for manufacturers’ standard locos, they often give load capability for gradients of this order, which strongly suggests that “everyone expected such things”.

 

In model form, 009 layouts with ridiculously steep and twisty routes used to have a reputation for working very well, which led to the “rabbit warren” style of model that was simultaneously popular and derided in the late-1960s and through the 1970s. Did something change?

 

I’m wondering quite why Mr Williamson is finding 2%, a mere 1:50, desirable and would love a few more clues.

 

 

Edited January 17 by Nearholmer

[Chris Williamson]

On 17/01/2024 at 08:56, Nearholmer said:

I’m curious about this gradient business, because real narrow gauge lines have no fear of gradients, often combined with horribly sharp curves, that would be considered serious trouble on most standard gauge railways. The Leighton Buzzard LR has a significant 1:25 (4%) section, which didn’t deter heavy sand trains, for instance, and the Darjeeling and Himalayas gets into similar gradients on tight curves. If you look at old brochures for manufacturers’ standard locos, they often give load capability for gradients of this order, which strongly suggests that “everyone expected such things”.

 

In model form, 009 layouts with ridiculously steep and twisty routes used to have a reputation for working very well, which led to the “rabbit warren” style of model that was simultaneously popular and derided in the late-1960s and through the 1970s. Did something change?

 

I’m wondering quite why Mr Williamson is finding 2%, a mere 1:50, desirable and would love a few more clues.

 

 

Mr Williamson gave some consideration to the question posed before replying.  He would like it to be noted that this is his opinion with a hint of aesthetic  prejudice thrown in for good measure.  He's very happy for others to pose alternative points of view.

 

First of all I did originally note that I'd consider a gradient of up to 2.5% as acceptable if circumstances dictated the need.  Otherwise, I'd base my observation on my own layout and my limited experience of 1 to 1 scale operation at Groudle Glen Railway.

 

Alas, I can't provide exact figures for my own layout as the related AnyRail file was lost to a hard disc failure.  However, the layout incorporates three gradients. The steepest, up to a mineworking, varies between 2% and 2.5%.  The steeper first part is predominantly straight with a passably gentle180 degree curve at about 2% on the remainder.  Six wagons is about the limit for most of my locos working up this.  I have a Baldwin that barely makes it to the top running light engine.  My two Quarry Hunslets are definitely thrashing as they round the curve.  Not having a great deal of room at the bottom of the straight and needing to incorporate the steeper part of the climb in to it,  there wasn't much opportunity to ease the line into the steeper part of the gradient.  As this can't be hidden it looks rather more abrupt than I really care for.  Had more room been available to ease into the gradient then, perhaps, it  would look a little more natural.  More often than not I'd contend that the average 009 layout compresses real world linear features to fit everything in.  Herein lies the aesthetic problem.

 

The two other gradients on the layout relate to the 'main line'.  I've sited the fiddle yard under the mine.  To allow sufficient clearance, the two ends of the fiddle yard rise into the scenic section.  They are both something less than 2%.  Nonetheless, one of these also traverses a 180 degree curve of just over 9 inches radius.  Most of my locos will haul two Peco L&BR bogie coaches upand around this but all really struggle with three coaches.

 

In the real world, GGR, "The line that runs uphill to the sea" climbs a section of about 1 in 38, if I've remembered correctly.  In descent, great care is needed on the brakes on the part of both driver and guard.  In ascent, the gradient ramps up gradually and levels off similarly.  Unlike my layout, the gradient is barely discernible unless you walk up it.  However, it takes a skilled driver to get up it.  Boiler sight-glass levels need careful monitoring if the cylinders are to be prevented from priming or arrival made at the top with too little water in the boiler.  Damp days and fully loaded trains are inevitably difficult and under these conditions it's not unknown for the train to fail to make it to the top on the first run.  On such days we could indeed do with a couple of 'sanders' stood on the front buffer beam Darjeeling style.  Inevitably, the train has to set back and the guard sand first behind and then ahead.  We do have sandboxes and sanders on the locos, but we also have Manx weather.  The chances of the sand in the boxes staying dry enough for any length of time are about zero and a near solid mass of damp sand isn't going to go anywhere if the sanders are operated.

 

A final thought consequent to a conversation yesterday evening.  I gather one of the GGR locos visited Leighton Buzzard a few years ago.  It may have been Sealion.  Test running was undertaken on the Friday of the visit.  Our driver was horrified to meet a party of school children walking down one of the steep banks as the loco charged uphill under the supervision of someone from LB.  The instruction was to keep going regardless otherwise they'd never get going again.  Happily the incident passed off with everyone unscathed.

[Nearholmer]

41 minutes ago, Chris Williamson said:

I have a Baldwin that barely makes it to the top running light engine.  My two Quarry Hunslets are definitely thrashing as they round the curve. 

This is interesting.

 

Having been away from the world of 009 for a long time, it makes me wonder if something has indeed changed. Maybe the Quarry Hunslets are so teeny-tiny that they can’t practically be heavy enough to do the job, but I’m surprised about the Baldwin: is it something about the weight distribution, or is it simply very light?

 

I thought I had spotted most visiting locos on the LBNG, living only about ten miles away, but must have missed yours, which is a pity. Nice railway the GG, even if it has poured with rain every time I’ve been there!

 

 

Edited January 25 by Nearholmer

[Chris Williamson]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

This is interesting.

 

Having been away from the world of 009 for a long time, it makes me wonder if something has indeed changed. Maybe the Quarry Hunslets are so teeny-tiny that they can’t practically be heavy enough to do the job, but I’m surprised about the Baldwin: is it something about the weight distribution, or is it simply very light?

 

I thought I had spotted most visiting locos on the LBNG, living only about ten miles away, but must have missed yours, which is a pity. Nice railway the GG, even if it has poured with rain every time I’ve been there!

 

 

Were white-metal loco kit bodies more prevalent in times past?  Thinking about it, they probably were; along with scratch-built locos made from sheet and turned brass, perhaps?  The QHs are capable enough on the flat and on gentle gradients.  They may even benefit from their short wheelbase when negotiating tight curves.  I suspect the Baldwin's issue pertains to it's light weight / distribution as well as its comparatively long wheelbase.  The modern RtR loco adds a huge improvement in detail and realism, but alas, at the expense of pulling power / adhesion.