Class 81-85 1965 proposed names

[rodent279]

Alternatively, one could follow the theme set by the Westerns, and have names with a common fleet prefix:-

Electric Advocate

Electric Pioneer

Electric Renown

and so on.

Edited November 28, 2023 by rodent279

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If stuck for the "electric" theme, then maybe:

Electric cooker

Electric fire

Electric light

Electric toaster

Electric toothbrush

[rodent279]

10 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

If stuck for the "electric" theme, then maybe:

Electric cooker

Electric fire

Electric light

Electric toaster

Electric toothbrush

Electric Blue

Electric Ladyland

Electric Light Orchestra

Electric Avenue

 

all of which would lead to a huge.....

 

......Electric Bill.....

 

See what I did there?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

You've got me there, Phil. Never heard of Electric Ladyland.

[rodent279]

7 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

You've got me there, Phil. Never heard of Electric Ladyland.

It's a Jimi Hendrix number double LP from 1968 so it would have to be a later naming.

Edited November 29, 2023 by rodent279

[Matt37268]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Do the names seem odd to others like they do to me?

 

Eros? Well, there aren't many Greek Gods beginning with E, and I suppose that Erebus, the god of darkness, is hardly associated with electicity (except for believers in the dark sucker theory). Of course, the EM2 naming committee bagged Electra, not a god, but a very good name. With Enchantress and Escort, I can't help thinking that someone was getting rather distracted.

 

Elector. Presumably the Electors of Hanover, Kings George I, II and III, rather than someone who voted for Harold Wilson in 1964. The title Elector of Hanover was formally abolished in 1806, along with the vestiges of the Holy Roman Empire. Hardly the white heat of technology.

 

Eleanor. The only given name in the list, but I can't think of a contemporary Eleanor (surely it isn't Eleanor Roosevelt, and it's too early for Eleanor Rigby in case that crossed anyone's mind). Instead, Eleanor in a British context often refers to Eleanor of Aquitaine (1122-1204), the queen of Henry II and mother of Richard I and King John, or Eleanor of Castille (1241-1290) the queen of Edward I and the person in whose honour the Eleanor Crosses were erected, the most famous being Charing Cross (Banbury Cross is a Victorian fake). Well, it's nice to have a sense of history, I suppose, but why name your bright and shiny new 100 mph 25 kV electric locomotive after medieval royalty?

 

Elgin and Ellesmere. Towns not noted for their electric railways (and Ellesmere had just lost its railway altogether). Perhaps named after the Earls of Elgin (he of Greek marbles fame) and Ellesmere (famous for nothing really, except getting rich from the Bridgwater Canal, which the first earl inherited rather than had built himself). Why not Eccles or Earlestown, which are both closer to the wires? Oh, they didn't have Earls. But I'd rather have an Eccles cake than an Elgin marble any day.

The Res 47’s allocated to Crewe in the mid 1990’s didn’t exactly follow a a naming theme did they? Apart from beginning with R, E and S? It was someone basically going through the dictionary, with the odd exception 😜

[slilley]

10 hours ago, 25kV said:

Me too!  As I say, it was back in 2001 or so when we were sent the information.  I have a feeling there was a document with the list on it, but I don't recall details.  I've not been involved with the ins and outs of the group since 2010, but if I do come across anything more, I'll post it here.  We reported it at the time as an intriguing proposal, but I don't know how far it got.

I would be very interested to see anything that came from within BR. As I have said naming was a develoved responsibility and having read the minutes of the LMR Board for that period, there is nothing on locomotive names within those meetings, it was a topic discussed when they were deciding the names to be given to the Class 44s a few years earlier. By 1965 new namings were forbidden only existing commitments would be honoured so for this to have had any chance of getting off the ground it would have had to have started happening before October 1964 when the BRB stopped new namings. For some context, the Western Region had already agreed names for 17 Brush Type 4s by the time the ban came in, so they were treated as existing commitments, as were the later regimenatl Peak names, they had already been agreed.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I suppose the question is WHY did the BRB decide on an end to the naming of their locos. Was it all to do with a sleek new image they wanted to portray, unencumbered by past (dirty old steam) history?

 

Presumably the policy change was made when Richard Beeching was at the helm, as his successor (Stanley Raymond) didn't take the reins until June 1965 - or maybe it was the latter? By all accounts Raymond had a "blunt and aggressive manner" [Gourvish (1986) - "BR 1948-73: A Business History" p.345]. Though doubtless both had more on their minds than the naming of a few pesky engines.

[Mol_PMB]

It's perhaps interesting to consider BR's (or the regions') wider naming practice before the moratorium on electric and diesel loco names. In the 1950s and 1960s, it seems that names were confined to 1500VDC electric locos used on passenger services, or Type 4&5 diesel locos (though not all such locos were named).

Within each named class, the names generally had a theme and there was a consistent style of nameplates, but there was no such commonality between different classes.

Some classes received names from new whilst others were applied later, up to 1966 in the case of the WR class 47s.

 

My understanding is as follows (feel free to correct this list):

ER/NER: All EM2s and the boiler-fitted EM1s (Greek mythology). Also all the Deltics (racehorses or regiments).

LMR: Some class 40s (passenger ships), all class 44s (mountains) and some 45s (regiments). 

WR: all class 41/42/43 (warships), all class 52 (Western ...), some 47s (GWR-themed)

SR: none?

ScR: none?

 

Once the blue corporate image had settled in and names were permitted again in the 1970s, the nameplates were consistent in style and colour for 20 years or so. However, there was less consistency in the classes which were named and the theme of the names.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

ScR - Their batch of the Deltics

ER - Some EE Type 3 were to have East Anglian Regiment names, but I think the regiments were amalgamated/disbanded before names applied

 

Oh, and also a solitary class 46...

Edited November 29, 2023 by Peter Kazmierczak

[APOLLO]

 

 

Allocated to Springs Branch, Wigan !!

 

Brit15

[Peter Kazmierczak]

According to Marsden and Ford [(1998) - "Encyclopedia of Modern Traction Names" p.5], the subject of loco naming came to an end, somewhat controversially, following a meeting of the BRB on 7th December 1964. The naming of locos was viewed as a "remnant of the steam era" and "not that of a forward thinking rail system".

So it was under Richard Beeching's watch. If it was "controversial", I wonder who wanted to continue with the policy. The WR, maybe?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Names seemed very inconsistent, and this is not just BR but the Big Four as well. Just looking at the Deltic and Peak regimental names, there is a mixture of regiments (The King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry) and descriptions applied to a soldier from that regiment (Queen's Own Highlander, rather than Queen's Own Highlanders). Mostly, it seems that when a description can be used, it is, even if it means adding "man" (Coldstream Guardsman), but there are some exceptions, so we have The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers rather than Royal Northumberland Fusilier. and 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards rather than 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guardsman. Then there is the odd addition of "the" in The Lancashire Fusilier, The Royal Warwickshire Fusilier and The Royal Artilleryman. I suppose each regiment might have been asked its preferred style.

 

And why Lytham St Annes?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

 

Indeed, why Lytham St Annes? Doubtless all will be reveiled in Simon's book on the "Peaks" - can't open mine until Christmas....

BUT, many of the Peak names derived from those carried by Patriots. There was an RAF base at Lytham (1947-56) but I doubt that was the reason.
Quite a few Patriots were named after Lancashire/North Wales seaside resorts. Maybe if loco naming had continued, we would've had the delights of Fleetwood, Southport, Morecambe & Heysham, Colwyn Bay, Blackpool, Bangor, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Llandudno, Caernarvon and Holyhead, together with the whole of the Isle of Man.
Could've called the 45s the "Resort" class. Or the "Last Resort"...

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Could've called the 45s the "Resort" class. Or the "Last Resort"...

<Pedant Mode>No class 45's were true Peaks, only class 44's D1-D10 were, the 45's were Regiments and the solitary Lytham St Anne's</Pedant Mode>

[slilley]

There does seem to be various comments on BR naming of diesel locomotives running at the moment. I will try to draw together all that i know based on original documentation.

 

In the early years naming was a devolved responsibility.  In 1957 an ad hoc BTC committee made a series of suggestions for possible names. These covered the BR/Sulzer Type 4s, the EE Type 4s, the Warships (which the WR had already decided to call after naval ships), and the 2552hp SR Bo-Bo electrics. The committee suggested for example that the first D800 be called Duke of Edinburgh. The regions were at liberty to take up these suggestions or ignore them and try something else. As it was the names suggested by the committee for the 10 BR/Sulzer Type 4s were not taken up by the LMR prefering instead to use the names of mountains within their region. The ER decided against naming the first ten EE Type 4s. 

 

As regards the regimental Peaks, I would suggest people read either my book on the Peaks, or an article in the December Railways Illustrated. The naming of them came from an initiative from Sir Brian Robertson who had received a number of letters from regiments asking if their names would be transferred onto diesel locomotives  when the steam locomotive carrying their name was replaced. A number of regiments responded and their names were transferred onto Peaks.

 

As regards the 17 WR Brush Type 4s that were named, the decision to give some names was agreed by the WR Board on 15 January 1964. The names to be used were agreed by the board on 13 May 1964. This explains why these locomotives were named after the ban came into effect as they had already been agreed.

 

The BRB on 8 October 1964 to discontinue naming diesel locomotives once existing committments had been fulfilled.  This led to a generous application of the rules when it came to the naming of D84 Royal Corps of Transport. The Corps had only been founded in 1965, and in November their Colonel wrote to the LMR asking if a locomotive could be named after the Corps. The letter was passed to the BR Public Relations Adviser who said that as the Corps  was an amalgamation of and included parts of the Royal Army service Corps it would be classed as a continuing commitment and so a locomotive could be named Royal Corps of Transport.

 

The no names policy remained in place until the Chairman's Conference on 5 May 1977 where the meeting agreed that namings would resume and that they would be restricted to locomotives  used on important passenger trains. As a result the Class 50s and Class 87s were named in totality, 87001 had already been named in 1975 as a one off for the Stockton & Darlington 150. 

 

I hope this draws together this subject and answers questions for people across several postings. This is all based upon reserach at the National Archives at Kew where the vast majority of BR documents are now kept.

 

Simon

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I thought the first 87 named was Stephenson, as a result of a request by the Stephenson Locomotive Society (SLS)?

[slilley]

34 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I thought the first 87 named was Stephenson, as a result of a request by the Stephenson Locomotive Society (SLS)?

Yes it was, which is what I was refering to when I said it was named as a one off.

[Evertrainz]

It seems like the consensus is that the Roarers didn’t ever truly have any plans to be named.

 

In spite of this, I’ll probably leave the nameplate on the loco for the simulator. My reasoning is that giving some sort of appeal by means of a shiny nameplate will hopefully draw some more attention from simulator enthusiasts and traction enthusiasts towards the neglected Roarers. I don’t think it would be hurting anyone, I’d just hopefully garner these locos some more attention and interest - of course at the expense of “rewriting” some history. 

 

Hopefully I’d also be able to get the physics and driving of the loco in the simulator correct, based on WR timetables and electric motor physics. If you guys have not already seen, Armstrong Powerhouse does a very nice Class 86 for train simulator (the cab simulation is especially well done) - I’d hope to reach something like this level of operation detail with the Roarer(s).

 

In my eyes the benefits outweigh the losses, as some fabrication is required here and there to keep things interesting :)

Edited December 1, 2023 by Evertrainz