GCR Robinson 3250 and 4000 gallon tenders

[65179]

I've put this in this area because the following is an aid to modelling rather than a type history, and is an aide memoire for me whilst building GC locos in 2mm scale.

 

The Standard GC tender is another of those railway items where standard is a complete misnomer.  Whilst the 3 basic sorts of Robinson tenders (I'm deliberately excluding the 40  3080 gallon tender fitted to the later J10s as these share many Parker/Pollitt features) do share a number of common features, there's plenty of variety in the 3 types:

i) 3250 gallon
ii) 4000 gallon
iii) 4000 gallon self trimming

There's even more if we were to consider the later life of the ROD tenders and the modified tenders behind the D49s.

It's easiest to start with what a Robinson tender isn't. They were derived from the earlier Pollitt and Parker tenders, but are easily distinguishable chiefly by looking at the tender valance and the tender footsteps.

Pollitt and Parker (and Robinson 3080 gallon) tenders:

Rear of valance curves down to meet the bufferbeam and stepplates are not joggled inwards. Rear steps will be absent altogether in early condition.

Robinson 3250 and 4000 gallon tender:

Valance is a consistent depth with no rear curve and bottom front and rear stepplates are joggled inwards.

So before anyone convinces you a J10 0-6-0 is trailing a Robinson 4000 gallon tender, just check the rear of the tender valance!

i) 3250 gallon tenders

The 3250 gallon type was introduced on the B1, B5, C4, J11, D9 and Q4 (using LNER nomenclature for ease).

 

(H C Casserley image Charlie Verrall on Flickr)

The first of the tenders (for D9 and J11) had 2 coalrails and no water pickup apparatus (circular rear filler?) with later 3250 gallon tenders having four coalrails and water pick up apparatus (D filler and 'ship's wheel' operating handwheel).

As built it does not look like these tenders had a rear division plate/coalplate.

For both 3250 and 4000 gallon tenders, the RCTS volumes suggest that plating of the coalrails started rapidly: plating done pre-Grouping being on the outside of the coalrails; and post-Grouping inside of them. A coalrail tender with external plating will lack the beading around the top edge of the coalguard seen on those built with solid coalguards from new. See for example, the lack of beading on 63598's 4000 gallon tender here:
https://railphotoprints.uk/p494432063/h388aa177

ii) 4000 gallon tenders

The 4000 gallon tender, with a deeper tank than the 3250 gallon tender but the same coal capacity was introduced in 1904. These were at first produced without a rear division plate and with 4 coalrails. Sheet steel coal guards with outside beading were provided for new tenders from approx.1905.

Whilst there are many variations within the non-self trimming (standard or horseshoe) tenders, the 3 major variants are:

1)  the initial batches with short coalguards and a slight taper to the tender flare at the front like the earlier Pollitt tenders, no or a low division plate, and D filler with or without scoop control gear and associated boxes;

(Charlie Verrall Flickr image)

2) the ROD tender, retaining the short coalguards and the tapered flare, but with full height division plate, with 2 supporting stanchions, further back on the tank, and with circular tank filler;
 

(Robert Gadson Flickr image)

and finally

3) the type fitted to some of the later large boilered locos with long coalguards, no taper, and high division plate in the same place as that on the initial batches tenders.
 

(Flickr image G R Griggs image uploaded by Colin Alexander)

 

The change to long coalguards occurred on GC locos prior to the ROD tenders being produced such that B8, B3, B6, B7 and O5 locos all received these tenders from new (excluding those B7s equipped with the self trimming type from new), and some D11s received them when giving up their self-trimming tenders to B3s.

The early tenders and ROD batch looked like this:

The later long coalguard variety looked like this:


Note also the variation in brake standard position. The earlier tenders seem to have included examples with the brake standard in either position.

The later long coalguard tenders and the earlier tenders fitted to wide boilered locos (B2 and D10) featured a widened running plate in front of the sidesheets:

((Flickr image uploaded by Richard)
Seen also on this later pattern tender on an ex-O5:
 

(Robert Gadson Flickr image)
Other differences to watch out for are:

 

the presence or absence of sandboxes either side of the coal hole;

tenders with D filler, but no scoop control gear boxes (scoop gear removed):

(Flickr image posted by Tony Bonsall)

 

As noted by Tony below, most of the 4000 gallon tenders had the beading on top of the small side sheet extensions curving outwards so that the vertical handrail was not in line with sidesheets.

 

Some however had straight beading and inline handrails.

 

The footplate level (mounted on top of the running plate) also varied in height according to the loco to which it was attached.

The axlebox spring arrangement common to all varieties of a longer spring on the middle axlebox:

(Flickr Charlie Verrall image)
Note how the middle spring hangers overlap the cutout more than those on either side.

There are umpteen axlebox and spring hanger differences too.

 

Please feel free to point out any errors.

Self-trimming tenders to follow...

Simon

Edited December 5, 2023 by 65179
Added details from t-b-g's post

[30368]

18 minutes ago, 65179 said:

I've put this in this area because the following is an aid to modelling rather than a type history, and is an aide memoire for me whilst building GC locos in 2mm scale.

 

Many thanks and much appreciated 65179. I have a 4mm B7 kit to build so this information will be very helpful. Your 2mm GC loco's are so very good, well done!

 

Kind regards,

 

30368

[65179]

4000 gallon self-trimming type

The self-trimming tender differs from the non-self trimming type by:

-  having a hopper shaped coal space with correspondingly very different coalhole.

-  being consistently 8ft 9in over      platform  with a wider tank than the earlier tenders (earlier tenders were 8ft 3in over platform except for the wider sections on the large-boilered locos, and earlier tenders were 7ft 8 outside the tank compared with 8ft 1 and a bit for the self-trimming type)

- having less overhang in the flare as a result (as they were the same width over coalguards as the earlier tenders).

- having a straight-topped front coalplate with upturned ends as opposed to the gentle arc of the earlier tenders.

- having a prominent central toolbox on top of the tender front.

It is the latter 2 features that are most consistently obvious in photos.

Compare non-self trimming:

(Historical Railway Images picture of 1165 Valour on Flickr)

with self-trimming:

(Peter Brabham image on Flickr)

 

(Arriving Somewhere Flickr image)

 

Note also the longer coalguards like the non-self trimming type fitted to the later wide-boilered locos.

Yeadon's Register states that these tenders were only ever fitted to classes D11/1, D11/2, B3 and B7. The D11/2 tenders lacked water pick up apparatus, although the GA for them shows all the boxes for it to be fitted present.

Sadly the photographs of Butler Henderson's self-trimming tender here:

uploaded by @t-b-g were lost.

Simon

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, 65179 said:

4000 gallon self-trimming type

The self-trimming tender differs from the non-self trimming type by:

-  having a hopper shaped coal space with correspondingly very different coalhole.

-  being consistently 8ft 9in over      platform  with a wider tank than the earlier tenders (earlier tenders were 8ft 3in over platform except for the wider sections on the large-boilered locos, and earlier tenders were 7ft 8 outside the tank compared with 8ft 1 and a bit for the self-trimming type)

- having less overhang in the flare as a result (as they were the same width over coalguards as the earlier tenders).

- having a straight-topped front coalplate with upturned ends as opposed to the gentle arc of the earlier tenders.

- having a prominent central toolbox on top of the tender front.

It is the latter 2 features that are most consistently obvious in photos.

Compare non-self trimming:

(Historical Railway Images picture of 1165 Valour on Flickr)

with self-trimming:

(Peter Brabham image on Flickr)

 

(Arriving Somewhere Flickr image)

 

Note also the longer coalguards like the non-self trimming type fitted to the later wide-boilered locos.

Yeadon's Register states that these tenders were only ever fitted to classes D11/1, D11/2, B3 and B7. The D11/2 tenders lacked water pick up apparatus, although the GA for them shows all the boxes for it to be fitted present.

Sadly the photographs of Butler Henderson's self-trimming tender here:

uploaded by @t-b-g were lost.

Simon

 

I still have the photos and can put them on again if people would like to see them.

 

The GCR tenders certainly are a nightmare of very non standard "Standard" types.

 

A further variation concerns the height of the timber platform at the front of the tender, which varied depending on the height of the footplate on the loco it was to be attached to and the short wider portion of the footplate at the front. The small side sheets at the front varied too. Some had the beading on top (supporting the top of the handrail) straight and others had it curved out.

 

After an in depth trawl through what we know about the tender behind Morayshire, I revised my thoughts and I am now pretty sure that it isn't an ROD tender but a modified Pollitt/Parker type. Lots of early 4-4-0 and 0-6-0 tender locos were being withdrawn at the time the D49s were being built and I think they reused a tender from a withdrawn loco. 

[Pebbles]

Axle boxes of all pre grouping companies that were incorporated within the LNER are a bit of a nightmare. That said this appears to have also been the case with other items, just think about the variety of smoke boxes on the B1s. The quite sound policy appears to have been use existing stocks to exhaustion then adopt a group standard item.  Axle boxes alone could start a whole debate.

[Jim Martin]

14 hours ago, 65179 said:

The Standard GC tender is another of those railway items where standard is a complete misnomer.

This reminded me of a book I once read (can't remember which one) which said something along the lines of "GCR locomotive classification followed a logical system...", which was news to me.

[65179]

On 05/12/2023 at 00:35, t-b-g said:

 

I still have the photos and can put them on again if people would like to see them.

 

The GCR tenders certainly are a nightmare of very non standard "Standard" types.

 

A further variation concerns the height of the timber platform at the front of the tender, which varied depending on the height of the footplate on the loco it was to be attached to and the short wider portion of the footplate at the front. The small side sheets at the front varied too. Some had the beading on top (supporting the top of the handrail) straight and others had it curved out.

 

Tony, if you are happy to share them again then I'm sure they would be appreciated.

 

Is there any pattern to which tenders had straight beading and which had curved on the sidesheet extensions? 

 

Simon