Connecting Z21, Roco 10807 dual power booster and Digikejis / Yamorc urrent sensors

[ITG]

hi,

I'm building a fairly large 00 layout (well, it is for me), usingiTrain, with what will be around 100 feedbacks and 20-30 locos (some sound). In discussions with DCCTrainAutomation, (initially around short circuit protection acually), I am taking James' advice to:

a) split the DCC Bus between tracks and accessories (mainly turnouts)

b) split the track bus itself into two, each nominally half the layout.

This resulted in me buying a Roco 10807 dual booster (& power supply).

I'm also using a mixture of Digikejis and Yamorc current sensing units. One feedback is in a reverse loop section, using a Lodi reverse loop module (chosen as it does not affect current sensing).

I'm not yet at the connecting up stage (track laying not yet complete anyway), and I've had a quick read of the 10807 intsruction book, but I'd like to seek guidance from the good folk on this forum as to exactly how I connect everything up.

I think i get the power and DCC connections, but I'm not clear how the loconet cables (which ordinarily would link the Current Sensor units) need to link in.

Where do they connect to? To the Z21 or the 10807? If the latter, where? And do these loconet connections span all the current sensor units, irrespective of whether they are fed from track output 1 or 2 on the booster? (I may have more questions on this point, dependant on what the answer is)

Also, when using the current sensor devices, which are split into 2 x 8 sections, can one section (1-8) be fed from one track output on the 10807, and 9-16 fed from the other? (I ask this because the physical layout may make this option easier/simpler/shorter to wire, rather than all 16 be fed from one.

Attached is a crude pdf showing what I believe is the set-up, but omitting the loconet connections.

 

Thanks for your help

Ian

Roco booster connections.pdf

[WIMorrison]

Ian

 

It is actually a really simple solution - and one that I use myself 😉

 

a) create 3 busses

b) connect one bus (accessory) directly to the Z21

c) connect one bus to power district A

d) connect remaining bus to power district B

e) Connect CANbus cable between booster and Z21.

f) optionally, but recommended set up booster NOT to forward short circuits to Z21 (uncheck box)

g) optional, but recommended set up boosters NOT to use same voltage as Z21 (uncheck box)

h)  optional, but recommended activate auto-inversion (important for dual boosters, but of wiring is correct should not be required)

 

 

When wiring turnout motors take the switching power from the accessory bus, and, importantly, take the switching power for the frog from the appropriate power bus (A or B).

 

The reason for having different track and accessory voltage is that most turnout motors will work better on a voltage lower than the track and this allows you to have different voltages. I use 13v for accessory bus and 17v for track bus.

 

It really is that simple, the one 'gotcha' to watch for is accidentally crossing between the power districts which need to be completely separated from each other with full isolation between the two districts.

 

EDT - forgot to say that the Loconet bus goes from and to to the Z21, not the booster.

Edited December 19, 2023 by WIMorrison

[ITG]

Thanks - as always - Iain.

just the one query remaining I think….

 

40 minutes ago, ITG said:

Also, when using the current sensor devices, which are split into 2 x 8 sections, can one section (1-8) be fed from one track output on the 10807, and 9-16 fed from the other? (I ask this because the physical layout may make this option easier/simpler/shorter to wire, rather than all 16 be fed from one.

Ian

[WIMorrison]

Sorry, I missed that query and the answer is I think you can wire one C terminal to one Power District and the other C to the other Power District. Never tried that but in theory it should work because they are two separate reporters an everything on the DR4088xx is powered from Loconet.

[ITG]

34 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Sorry, I missed that query and the answer is I think you can wire one C terminal to one Power District and the other C to the other Power District. Never tried that but in theory it should work because they are two separate reporters an everything on the DR4088xx is powered from Loconet.

Logically, that’s what I thought.

Because the layout is a twin track roundy, (that will be one power district) with inside the oval, a twin track storage through yard which folds back on itself to lead to a reverse loop (all of that being the second power district), the physical location of the feedbacks and each of the 6 or 7 current sensing units, means it’s convenient to have maybe 50 (or so) feedbacks in each of the power districts, and the division fits best with maybe 3 and a 1/2 (of the 16 feeds) in each power district. Hence the wish to split one unit. Time will tell!
thanks again

Ian

[ITG]

On 19/12/2023 at 18:46, WIMorrison said:

Ian

 

It is actually a really simple solution - and one that I use myself 😉

 

a) create 3 busses

b) connect one bus (accessory) directly to the Z21

c) connect one bus to power district A

d) connect remaining bus to power district B

e) Connect CANbus cable between booster and Z21.

f) optionally, but recommended set up booster NOT to forward short circuits to Z21 (uncheck box)

g) optional, but recommended set up boosters NOT to use same voltage as Z21 (uncheck box)

h)  optional, but recommended activate auto-inversion (important for dual boosters, but of wiring is correct should not be required)

 

 

When wiring turnout motors take the switching power from the accessory bus, and, importantly, take the switching power for the frog from the appropriate power bus (A or B).

 

The reason for having different track and accessory voltage is that most turnout motors will work better on a voltage lower than the track and this allows you to have different voltages. I use 13v for accessory bus and 17v for track bus.

 

It really is that simple, the one 'gotcha' to watch for is accidentally crossing between the power districts which need to be completely separated from each other with full isolation between the two districts.

 

EDT - forgot to say that the Loconet bus goes from and to to the Z21, not the booster.

I’ve finally got round to the point of connecting the electrics, using the connections as defined by @WIMorrison above. I’ve now realised I have another query, relating to the use of Yamorc 8116 switching decoder and MTB MP1 turnout motors.

1. There are two inputs on the Yamorc unit, Power and Signal. Which of the buses (track and accessory) do I use for which input? Logically I think the accessory bus for the signal (as that’s providing the ‘switch’ command, and the track bus for the power (as that’s the power being switched for the frog). Or is it the accessory bus for both connections?

 

2. what is the source of the power connection on the MP1? Track or accessory? I think track but a confirmation or clarification would be most welcome.

 

thanks

Ian

Edited March 27 by ITG
Added explanation

[KingEdwardII]

1 hour ago, ITG said:

what is the source of the power connection on the MP1? Track or accessory?

The 3 wires which power the MP1 should come from the 8116 decoder.

 

If you are providing frog power through the switch in the MP1, then this switch should be fed track power.

 

Yours, Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

1 hour ago, ITG said:

and the track bus for the power

The 8116 could be fed from the accessory bus for both signal and power. There is good reason not to feed it from track power, since if you get a short which trips the track power, this would also disable the 8116 and so also the point motors. If the short was caused e.g. by running a train through an incorrectly set turnout, this would make it harder to correct the problem.

 

You can also feed the 8116 power from a separate power supply (e.g. 12V DC) - bear in mind that this power is used to actually drive the MP1 motors, so needs to provide enough current to drive them.  However, the MP1s only draw around 150mA while operating and switch off at the end of travel, so do not place a large burden on the power supply (in contrast to solenoid motors).

 

Yours, Mike.

[ITG]

10 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

The 3 wires which power the MP1 should come from the 8116 decoder.

 

If you are providing frog power through the switch in the MP1, then this switch should be fed track power.

 

Yours, Mike.

Thanks for the response.

Based on the image, the top three should link to the track power, with the third one down being the frog wire. That’s what I thought, and have done. The bottom 3 are connected to the Yamorc switch decoder, again as I’ve done.

 

so now just need to clarify how best to connect the two inputs on the Yamorc unit, signal and power. The provided diagrams indicate the two can be linked together, so one and the same. But there’s no mention of a scenario of using separate track and accessory buses.

Ian

[ITG]

4 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

The 8116 could be fed from the accessory bus for both signal and power. There is good reason not to feed it from track power, since if you get a short which trips the track power, this would also disable the 8116 and so also the point motors. If the short was caused e.g. by running a train through an incorrectly set turnout, this would make it harder to correct the problem.

 

You can also feed the 8116 power from a separate power supply (e.g. 12V DC) - bear in mind that this power is used to actually drive the MP1 motors, so needs to provide enough current to drive them.  However, the MP1s only draw around 150mA while operating and switch off at the end of travel, so do not place a large burden on the power supply (in contrast to solenoid motors).

 

Yours, Mike.

Thanks Mike, our posts crossed, I think.

So it makes no difference to the suggested connections in the manual, of linking the two inputs, even if using separate buses. That’s what I thought, and have done.

Ian