Oldhaven Harbour. New build, new modeller. Comments and Criticism welcome (n gauge)

[ngaugenic]

Hi, looking to build a quayside scene in a 170*40 space set in 1950s/60s early BR and have taken inspiration from Newhaven Harbour.  The atmosphere is a run down quayside that has Beeching left eye twitching and his hand reaching for the red pen.

 

I'm interested in some shunting work along the quayside with a quiet passenger line dropping the few ferry passengers at the harbour station.

 

Passenger operations would be run by a class 27/33 perhaps with a couple of carriages.  A class 03 shunter to run the trucks around.  A tank engine to haul the goods trucks back and forwards.

 

I've developed a first draft of the track layout below, something of an inglenook but using the extra length I've got available to make operations a bit smoother.   All track is to be peco code 55. The passenger operations would be on the top line, with the loco running around to return.  I have about 40cm in depth and this is flexible, but the length is the inside dimension of the shed (insulated/heated).

 

 

Any comments on the following very welcome:

1) the general railway operations, does the track layout "make sense"?

2) Any practical modelling issues you can see?

3) How would you go about signalling this setup?

[ngaugenic]

To partly answer my own questions, there would be little or no signalling in the goods area but the in/out lines would have signalling to enter the scene.  And the passenger platform would have starter signals?  

 

And to add:

4) Would a signal box be on site here?

[The Johnster]

I'm not familiar with Newhaven so do not know how closely this resembles the prototype track plan, but I hope you will take my comments as constructively crititcal.  Taking your numbered points in order:-

 

1) 'Making sense'.  The space you have is the space you have, and I note you have used some space-saving dodges such as a scissors crossing and 3-way turnouts.  I think you have room to ditch the scissors, an unusual arrangement in a goods yard, and you still can't access one of the short sidings from the short headshunt.  Personally, I'd ditch the short headshunt and feed the sidings by using the 'bottom' fiddleyard access road as te yard headshunt.  This saves you a 3-way, replaced by a Y, 2 RH turnouts, and the diamond.  'Goods in/out' looks wrong and can be 'rationalised' as a simple headshunt; this traffic would I think be much more likely to arrive or depart on the single track passenger line and be routed to the run around loop from where it can access the harbour sidings.  That might allow the headshunt to be extended to serve a fish-loading platform, or bunker oil storage for ferry fuel, in front of, and a scenic block to, the fy.

 

2) Modelling issues.  What is the grey area on the plan?  Where is the platform and how long is it?  How long do you envisage your passenger trains to be? 

 

3) Signalling.  A vast and complex subject, but you need a) starter signals on roads leading into the section leading away from the terminus.  The top line has to be an absolute block section (I'm imaginging semaphores here) because it handles the passenger traffic.  One on the platform road protecting the turnout trailing in from the run around loop, and one on the run around loop leading in to the section.  b) Inbound, you need a splitting junction home signal with the lower doll reading to the run around loop if you intend to run passenger trains on to that loop, but if the run around is a shunting move, you can get away with a single board home and shunting signals to take train into that loop. 

 

I think I'm right in saying that Newhaven was on the 3rd rail, which would allow the use of electric and electro-diesel locos and emus for some of the passenger services.  Of course this isn't Newhaven, it's Oldhaven, and this may well not apply...

 

And before I go, welcome to the insanity, I mean hobby!  Let us know how you are getting on with the layout, when you can.

Edited January 2 by The Johnster

[phil_sutters]

A useful source of photos, including aerial shots, of Newhaven is the Our Newhaven website. http://www.ournewhaven.org.uk/category_id__69.aspx

While I realise that you are using Newhaven as a starting point - a small ferry and cargo port with SR railway services, there are a couple of points. The ferry terminal is on the east bank of the river so the plan should be the other way round. The other thing that needs consideration is how the goods traffic connects with the cargo ships and what facilities it would need - cranes etc.

I hope you can work out a good layout and have fun bringing it to life. Currently the site of Newhaven Marine is the access point for the aggregates terminal, visited by class 66s and passed by 377s on their way to and from Seaford.

Happy New Year.

[RobinofLoxley]

@Schooner is the go-to guy for quaysides

[ngaugenic]

Thanks for the input guys. @RobinofLoxley, I've spotted his work thanks, lots to read through there.

 

@phil_sutters, That website looks great.  Newhaven is an inspiration for the scene rather than this being a replica of the site so I don't mind the river being on the wrong end. Also that would put the fun bits in a difficult corner!  

 

With regards to the infrastructure I've considered a couple of fixed swing cranes marked as circles on the plan, but might go extravagant an put in a wheeled crane to shift up and down the quayside.

 

@The Johnster.  Cheers for the signalling info, I'll try and put something down on paper to see how it would work.  In my head the two approach lines are because the passenger line leads to a town station and the mainline somewhere, whereas the goods line feeds round to more of the port along the river before joining up with the passenger line elsewhere...

 

to answer your questions: The platform is the rectangular object in front of the ferry terminal, the grey area would be a paved area for handling and storing unloaded goods, making this area something of a tramway...

Edited January 2 by ngaugenic

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, ngaugenic said:

 

@phil_sutters, That website looks great.  Newhaven is an inspiration for the scene rather than this being a replica of the site so I don't mind the river being on the wrong end. Also that would put the fun bits in a difficult corner!  

 

With regards to the infrastructure I've considered a couple of fixed swing cranes marked as circles on the plan, but might go extravagant an put in a wheeled crane to shift up and down the quayside.

 

The platform is the rectangular object in front of the ferry terminal, the grey area would be a paved area for handling and storing unloaded goods, making this area something of a tramway...

Is the blue section the harbour, with the ferry berth on the terminal side of the projecting quay and the cargo wharf on the side that you have your cranes?

The idea of having more off-scene cargo facilities up-stream makes sense. Newhaven actually had cargo wharves, both to the north and south of the swing bridge and at an earlier period on the other side of the river.

This photo, from the Our Newhaven site, shows the type of crane in use in the post WW2 era. http://www.ournewhaven.org.uk/page_id__1361.aspx?path=0p69p82p Newhaven was a busy port during the wars and the dock facilities were geared up to handle much greater traffic than before, especially towards the end of the war. The Newhaven - Dieppe route was the most direct to Paris.

Edited January 2 by phil_sutters

[ngaugenic]

Quote

Is the blue section the harbour, with the ferry berth on the terminal side of the projecting quay and the cargo wharf on the side that you have your cranes?

Yes, that's the idea, I can stretch the width of the jetty to include a larger crane but I was also wary of it dominating the scene?

 

Quote

The idea of having more off-scene cargo facilities up-stream makes sense. Newhaven actually had cargo wharves, both to the north and south of the swing bridge and at an earlier period on the other side of the river.

Ipswich docks is similar, with a run of industry along the river and wharves.

 

Quote

This photo, from the Our Newhaven site, shows the type of crane in use in the post WW2 era. http://www.ournewhaven.org.uk/page_id__1361.aspx?path=0p69p82p Newhaven was a busy port during the wars and the dock facilities were geared up to handle much greater traffic than before, especially towards the end of the war. The Newhaven - Dieppe route was the most direct to Paris.

I like the idea of the wider area justifying parts of the model that would otherwise seem out of place.

[phil_sutters]

Before it became a port, as the mouth of the Ouse silted up leaving Seaford, a former Cinque Port, with poorer and poorer access to the sea for shipping, the village was called Meeching.

[Schooner]

Outside my usual stomping ground in terms of scale and setting, so season the following to taste.

 

On 01/01/2024 at 17:32, ngaugenic said:

Any comments on the following very welcome:

1) the general railway operations, does the track layout "make sense"?

I can't say 'no'...but I am struggling to come up with problems to which the proposed track layout is the answer!

 

On 01/01/2024 at 17:32, ngaugenic said:

2) Any practical modelling issues you can see?

Nope :) I do wonder what's happening off-stage to the left though, both in the modelled world in the real world. What's your plan for stock storage/management?

 

On 01/01/2024 at 17:32, ngaugenic said:

3) How would you go about signalling this setup?

Fair question, but might be worth waiting for the plan to settle. I can't give a useful answer, but if nothing comes up here then the signalling subforum will be the place to ask.

 

 

Going a little beyond your questions, forgive me poking a little further - Newhaven is an excellent (and excellently documented) spot to choose for inspiration and I'll be following this project closely :) So...

.

...why do you want to model a dockside scene? It's relevant because docks are huge multi-modal systems which none of us have space to model at scale, so it's useful to help target specific areas to take inspiration from. Have I understood correctly that it's because of the mix of traffic it would permit? 

 

If so, may I fling a couple of resources your way? NLS' georeferenced map database is ace, and I think this is probably the one to look at:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.6&lat=50.79038&lon=0.05512&layers=258&b=1

 

Britain from Above is also brilliant (do sign up for a free account if you've not already, for useful full-screen and zoom options), as here in 1950:

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW028825

 

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW028826

 

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW028829

 

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW028830

 

There are photos from the mid-20s through to 1972, which give a great idea about what kind of maritime, rail and shore facilities make sense together.

 

On the back of that lot, I'd say a good spot to investigate for your space* would be the Railway Quay. If your priority is goods and shunting, then consider the view looking East: Water in front, shunting roads and transit sheds, with the station and hotel at the rear and allotments into countryside for the back scene; goods shed to the North and Customs House to the South to frame the scene, travelling crane and or vessel hulls (cargo North and ferry South?) as viewblocks. 

 

Or if you'd rather a bit more focus on the passenger side, then the view looking West could also make for a most convincing layout :)

 

General thoughts:

• Running round, or loco release by pilot loco - which would you find more fun?
• Would breaking goods traffic down into marshalling (in a sorting yard) and spotting (on quayside sidings) suit you? It's prototypical, and can make for some engaging operation and excuse to run a few more locos than the real thing...something that often comes in handy!
• Do consider your available space as a whole, don't think of the sceneic area in isolation :)

 

HTH

 

Schooner

 

*Call it 5' for track at 1:160 so 800 scale feet, 1000 scale feet with a little modeller's license, by about 200 scale feet. A fair chunk of real estate!

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by Schooner
Sp!

[The Johnster]

Your station platform could be extended to the left, to form a taper inside the running around loop.  This is worth doing even if none of your train need that length, because usused platform with a train sitting in part of it suggests that the layout could handle much bigger trains if it needed to, and means that things look less cramped.

[ngaugenic]

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

I can't say 'no'...but I am struggling to come up with problems to which the proposed track layout is the answer!

Good point!  I started by following a track plan I found and grew the extra parts to suit.

 

I want a setup where there is shunting work and with a small passenger shuttle.  The top half with the platform is a single island platform with a runaround for the passenger loco/multiple unit.  the bottom half is for freight operations, inbound goods would arrive on the arrivals line, a shunter would then pick apart this train using sidings A,B and D.  A train ready for departure would be made up in siding C.  This freight operation would be by an 03 or a tank engine.  Siding C is awkward to get to but I couldn't find a way of getting to the left of the siding without a spider web of trackwork

 

Quote

Nope :) I do wonder what's happening off-stage to the left though, both in the modelled world in the real world. What's your plan for stock storage/management?

I can just about force a hard left turn leaving the area with a radius of about 10 inches.  Physically there are shelves in this area that be shifted but for now, phase 1, it will be hand of god to reorganise the next inbound traffic.

 

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

why do you want to model a dockside scene? Have I understood correctly that it's because of the mix of traffic it would permit? 

That's about it, mix of traffic and small scale operations.

 

8 hours ago, Schooner said:

Would breaking goods traffic down into marshalling (in a sorting yard) and spotting (on quayside sidings) suit you? It's prototypical, and can make for some engaging operation and excuse to run a few more locos than the real thing...something that often comes in handy!

This is very much what I have in mind!

 

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Your station platform could be extended to the left, to form a taper inside the running around loop. 

Yes, that platform layout is what is available in anytrain!  the platform would be formed to fill the run around loop with an overbridge and foot crossing to get to the ferry terminal

[Schooner]

Forgive the unsolicited doodles, but had a little time to kill and was intruiged. Time's now out so sharing where I got to in case it helps in any way (but please do feel free to ignore!).

 

Very rough, even by my usual standards, and my first encounter with Peco's N geometery leaves a lot to be desired. Much rationalisation required, but hopefully gives the general idea:

 

 

Dimensions were from memory - length is about right, but I've been over-generous with the width. 

• External (to national network) entry/exit at rear, masked by signal cabin, feeding
• P1 and P2: shuttle platforms. Traverser, hidden by hoteland footbridge, to change lines.
• P3 special/summer/excursion platfrom for loco-hauled trains. Pilot required for loco release. Carriages can be kept in the adjacent siding.
• Connection to docks network.
  • Left: Sorting yard, engine shed, internal line entry/exit masked by transit shed
  • Utility loop in the centre - a single slip makes this a pain to use, which might suit the OP :)
  • Quayside loop and spurs - not as per Newhaven, but a very typical (train-playable) formtion.
  • Right: 'through line' off the loop; fruit/special vehicle shed; quayside

If you don't mind @ngaugenic, I'll keep poking at this at the next week to see if I can make something a little prettier out of it.

 

[ngaugenic]

Wow, that looks amazing,  A lot more track than I put down! I like the combination of goods and passenger working. 

 

What are the dimensions on that setup though?  The length is strictly 175cm, 172cm that's the internal dimension of the shed.  The depth is flexible but above 40cm would start to be difficult to deal with in the space. I decided, cut and fitted the baseboard, so the depth is 50cm.  Some off-scene runoff would be nice to reorganise the traffic, can the platforms be shortened along with the right hand dockside loop?

 

Feel free to poke at it next week, I'm just accumulating track, scenics, point motors etc for now.

Edited January 6 by ngaugenic

[Chimer]

My first thoughts are:

 

Separate passenger and freight connections to  the "rest of the world" is a most unlikely scenario, so I'm with @The Johnster on his first point.  The line labelled "goods in/out" could just be a more functional headshunt as he suggests, but could also double as a road to (e.g.) another (offstage) quay dealing with some specific type of freight.

 

More fundamentally, I can't see how the concept works at all without a train's length of something (fiddle yard, fiddle stick, cassette) to the left of the ?? level crossings ?? at the left of your plan - and there doesn't seem to be room in the shed for that.

[ngaugenic]

Quote

Separate passenger and freight connections to  the "rest of the world" is a most unlikely scenario,

There are clipped portions of many dock railways that have a goods section adjacent to a passenger section, that is what I was intending to model, but I take the point that by the mid century rail connections would mostly be shared .

 

The left hand portion needs revising!  The track plan I submitted above was a very first draft , first time with any rail, first time planning any practical model railway, and does need improving.  Current plan is a hard left turn to use some space along the next wall.

[Schooner]

11 hours ago, ngaugenic said:

The length is strictly 175cm, 172cm...the depth is 50cm

First pass to previous 175cm x 40cm:

 

Busy but not unusually so, and I think (with no experience at all in 2mm) doable. 

 

Quick question - are you committed to N?

 

The transit shed might seem a bit much to have at the front edge but it does vital work masking the throat of the sorting yard so it's not apparent how long (short!) it is. I had in mind a lightly built open sided structure, so one can still see through. Hopefully this gives some idea:

Excuse the rolling stock - SCARM specials!

Edited January 6 by Schooner

[Nearholmer]

If you really want to get into a tangle of track, this is pre-WW1:

 

 

This view is from Newhaven Harbour station, looking into the throat of Newhaven Harbour (Boat) station, with the river on the right, and the hotel just poking into view on the right. The hotel had a reputation as being a bit of a dump, apparently.

 

The key (quay?) point(!) though is that the goods can’t walk, so has to be put on the boat side of the passenger station.

 

This lot was hugely simplified in later years.

 

Personally, if I was trying to do what you are attempting in the space you’ve got, I’d run the passenger service entirely with EMUs, so one road in and out to one platform, which is how the real thing worked after the early 1960s, although a lot of redundant track lingered until the early/mid 1970s.

 

My “fondest” memories of the locale are from The Winter of Discontent, when I spent time working on s job in the BR traction substation there, while all around the world froze solid, and everyone went on strike.

 

PS: I suspect that Schooner may be mixing up Newhaven Harbour station and Newhaven Harbour (Boat), later Newhaven Marine, stations. Nowadays, if you want to catch the boat, you have to get off at Newhaven Town, of course!

 

 

Edited January 7 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

For balance, I thought I’d point out that the other end, Gare Maritime at Dieppe, was far more attractive than the dog’s breakfast at Newhaven, and about as near to a full-sized model railway as you can get. The trains were more interesting too!

 

So, start modelling SNCF instead

 

Edited January 7 by Nearholmer

[ngaugenic]

That's a neater set of affairs!  And those cranes look monstrous for such a setting to my modern eyes.

 

Perhaps a stupid question but did foot passengers actually embark onto the ships?  Was it an elevated gangway? or walk along the quayside and avoid tripping on the rails/falling in the water?

 

Quote

Quick question - are you committed to N?

I am, yes.  bought up some track and scenics already but mostly I prefer the zoomed out scale relative to OO.

[Nearholmer]

I’ve been trying to remember how embarkation worked, and considering how many times I went to and fro, recollections are terribly dim. I think that high-level walkways/gangways were used at both ports, although TBH I can’t recall anything about the process at Newhaven; I do remember that at Dieppe one arrived in the elevated hall (I don’t recall climbing steps to get to it), then descended to the platform, where the train would be waiting.

 

Weymouth is another terminal that would repay study. There I’m 90% sure you used to board up a short gangway thing from the quay, through a door in the side of the boat, all seemingly very casual. We stayed a week once in the pub/hotel at the very end of the quay, in a big room with windows round the end (and a leaky bathroom) on the first floor, overlooking the terminal, and the boats sometimes loomed alongside, about thirty feet from the windows. Someone has loaded a cracking picture of the sort of thing to Flickr.

 

 

Edited January 7 by Nearholmer

[ngaugenic]

Oldhaven Rev 2: Heavily borrowing from Schooners first draft but adding in some details that I'd like to include and unfortunately removing a lot of the smoothness and skill of Schooner's effort.

 

Features I've necessarily included:  Arrivals and departure lines for the freight traffic.  Some motor transport with an access road. The ferry terminal and goods quay as before.  Fiddle sidings better connected to  departure lines then before.  Loco runaround for the passenger service. 

 

The signal box, loco shed and houses are sized to metcalfe kits.

 

What is happening in the middle I don't know yet.  Some open waste ground would balance the density elsewhere

 

@Nearholmer

Quote

There I’m 90% sure you used to board up a short gangway thing from the quay, through a door in the side of the boat, all seemingly very casual.

Life was simpler in the past eh!  Some gangways stowed on the Northern quayside seems appropriate then.

Edited January 7 by ngaugenic
.

[ngaugenic]

@Schooner, can I Ask how you got the ground effect here:

Stone sets is what I'm looking for along the quayside, changing at a hard edge to a scruffy dirty soil ground as you leave the port-side.

[The Johnster]

I like that plan.

 

If it was an Irish Sea ferry port, the open area would almost certainly be used for cattle lairage, fenced off space where beasts unloaded from ships were rested, fed/watered, and given a vetinary once-over before moving on.  There would be a platform for them to be loaded on to trains, usually block trains of cattle vans. 

 

Alternatives; perhaps a dockers' greasy spoon cafe, or a car park.  One is assuming there is no Ro-Ro facility, but the ships will probably be able to take a small number of cars craned into the hold.  Backscene up the hill to the left or your low relief terraced housing; hotels and guest houses for travellers wanting to get an early boat or coming off a late one.  The port will handle general cargo as well, so there could be a warehouse for this, and fishing, so there could be a fish shed (unloaded fish in crates from the boats, sold by highest bid to merchants, good excuse for a couple of INSULFISH vans...),  This would mean an ice house as well.  Engineering w/shop to deal with port equipment (cranes, winches, &c).

[Nearholmer]

What date is this set in?