Southwest Scotland 1920s.

[charlielynch]

Hello. This is my first post, so please forgive me if I am not managing to use the forum correctly in some way. 

 

I have been investigating building a layout in 00 representing, very loosely, somewhere between Stranraer and Girvan in the 1920s or early 1930s. This remains a scenic piece of railway, although now much neglected. One reason for my modelling scheme is the availability of several suitable LMS types in ready to run, namely, the new Bachmann 812, the Bachmann 'Crab' and, despite its faults, the Hornby 2P. 

 

My question for the experts is: What about rolling stock? I can see that there are two GSWR wagons available via Wizard Models, and presumably there would be potential to scratchbuild more in due course. What other freight vehicles could credibly appear? Would LNWR, Midland and or Caledonian wagons have made their way onto this line? 

 

What about carriages? As far as I can see, anything GSWR would be more scratchbuilding, but what about early LMS carriages? What kind of kits are out there and what might have been seen? 

 

thanks, 

 

Charlie 

[Buhar]

Hi Charlie

 

In terms of wagons, in your period most of the everyday types (goods, mineral, vans and some cattle) were pooled and so you would see wagons from anywhere and very roughly in line with the proportions owned by the various grouped companies, with a smattering of new builds.  The back and forth to the various collieries in Ayrshire might concentrate some G&SW minerals but these wouldn't be exclusive. 

 

The Ayr to Stranraer line was quite prestigious and so seeing newish build LMS Period I and Period II coaches is reasonable, although the LMS would mix those with any old thing to hand to get the seating required so G&SW corridors would be seen in the 1920s.  Comet do suitable LMS types.  G&SW........?  Scratchbuilding, I'm afraid.

 

David L. Smith's Legends of the G&SWR in LMS Days is a must-buy, if you don't already have it.

 

Alan

[pH]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

David L. Smith's Legends of the G&SWR in LMS Days is a must-buy, if you don't already have it.

His “The Little Railways of South-West Scotland” could also be useful to you.

[charlielynch]

Thanks to @Buharand @pH for their help. I have Smith's 'Legends of the G&SWR in LMS Days', a very interesting book. A sort of Akenfield with trains, seemingly made up of a cocktail of oral history interviews - if so, I wonder what happened to the tapes? 

I think the Bachmann 812 and wagons from Mousa, Slaters, Wizard and Trueline will make up a credible goods train and a good starting point. 

 

 

[BlackFivesMatter]

Andrew swans book on the port Patrick and wigtownshire is a great book with excellent plans and diagrams too. 

[pH]

2 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

Andrew swans book on the port Patrick and wigtownshire is a great book with excellent plans and diagrams too. 

Agree about the plans and diagrams, and also the pictures of locations and buildings. However … IMO the captions on some of the locomotive pictures, especially of G&SWR ones are (shall we say) open to discussion.

Edited January 9 by pH

[26power]

The Glasgow and South Western Association should be worth joining, if you are not already a member.

 

http://www.gswra.org

[Wheatley]

Swan's book is excellent and contains several 1930s photos. (I can't comment on the early loco captions as they'd all been scrapped before my period of interest !) The Oakfield Press book on the PP&WJR contains some period photos too (some of which may also be in Swan). "Branches and Byways - Southwest Scotland and the Border Counties" by Robotham is my other go to book, half if it is concerned with some minor railway further east but its on Abe Books at the moment for less than a tenner. Edit 1 - all these concentrate on the PP&WJR rather than the Ayrshire & Wigtownshire but include photos at Stranraer. "Little Railways ..." covers both. 

 

You need a Compound. The G&SWR also had a Peckett 0-4-0 at Ayr Harbour (there's a thread on here somewhere, possibly in the main Peckett thread) which can be made from the Hornby one reasonably easily by the look if it, although I've not found another donor to try it with yet (I'm not allowed to touch 'Dodo', apparently its 'pretty'). 

 

LMS period 1 (Bachmann/Mainline) and 2 stock on the boat trains and through services, also LMS clerestories (Ratio). G&SWR and Caley non-corridors on the locals -scratchbuilding for the former (or a very involved kit bash from the Ratio non-corridors which seemed like a good idea at the time) and Caley Coaches for the latter. G&SWR corridor stock were handsome vehicles but unlike anything else you could adapt to suit. Almost anyone's wagons as previously mentioned. 

 

Finally I doubt DL Smith's stories were recorded or based on formal interviews. I'm not sure what he did for a living (Edit 2 - librarian apparently) but he seems to have spent a lot of his time around trains and enginemen just listening, and knew a number of them personally. I suspect his anecdotes were all written from memory. 

 

The G&SWR Association is small but very helpful, although it's modelling content is  geared to 7mm as that's where its modelling members' interests mostly lie. 

Edited January 17 by Wheatley

[ardbealach]

On 17/01/2024 at 07:08, Wheatley said:

 

Finally I doubt DL Smith's stories were recorded or based on formal interviews. I'm not sure what he did for a living (Edit 2 - librarian apparently) but he seems to have spent a lot of his time around trains and enginemen just listening, and knew a number of them personally. I suspect his anecdotes were all written from memory. 

 

 

 

David L Smith was the deputy Chief Librarian for Ayr CC and lived in Ayr.   There is a bit more about him in the book 'Drawn to Scottish Steam' by Bill Rhind Brown and Dugald Cameron.

 

I was fortunate to know Davie [as he was known] and he would tell his stories of enginemen and locomotives on the GSWR in the same style as he set out the tales in his books.   He was a quiet reserved man, tall in height, who always looked fragile.  He would always narrate his great fund of tales in a quiet and unassuming way. [Alisdair]

 

[Wheatley]

Thanks Alisdair.  He's certainly one of the people (Derek Cross being another) who I wish I'd met. Both are responsible for an obsession lasting my entire adult life with a part of the country I have no connection with beyond family holidays ! "A Glasgow & South Western Innocent Abroad" was the real start of it ...

  

Edited January 18 by Wheatley

[John B]

I (finally) managed to get myself a copy of "The Little Railways of South West Scotland" by David L Smith - received yesterday, most appropriately from a bookshop in Wigton.

 

It's superb. It has lots of information about the Girvan and Portpatrick Railway, including motive power and stock used, as well as the rest of the railways in Galloway. 

 

Of a different era to Andrew Swan's opus "The Port Road", definitely, but every bit as readable. Highly recommended!

[ardbealach]

28 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Thanks Alisdair.  He's certainly one of the people (Derek Cross being another) who I wish I'd met. Both are responsible for an obsession lasting my entire adult life with a part of the country I have no connection with beyond family holidays ! "A Glasgow & South Western Innocent Abroad" was the real start of it ...

  

Does this explain the 'Wheatley' [Thomas and son William] connection perhaps???  (Alisdair)

[Wheatley]

Absolutely it does !

[charlielynch]

I'd assumed David Smith's oral material was recorded and then assembled into a narrative, but if as is suggested, it was from memory, that is quite a feat. The Girvan-Stranraer line is quite a sad place today, with an almost abandoned atmosphere. I try to travel on it between Belfast and Glasgow when I can, because I have been using the Citylink Bus for over a decade and am completely fed up with the experience. A nice picnic on the train, while rumbling over moorland, is to be recommended. If not in a hurry. 

 

Andrew Swan's book, The Port Road, is a fantastic resource. Where'd the accident reports giving train formations come from, I wonder? 

 

@Wheatley I'd wondered about the Bachmann/Mainline period 1 coaches - can these be improved upon or are they best left as is? I see that Comet do kits of period 1 stock - have you experience of these? I am building wagons at the moment, which is a good learning experience. 

 

 

[Caley Jim]

10 minutes ago, charlielynch said:

 Where'd the accident reports giving train formations come from, I wonder? 

They are all held in the National Archive at Kew.  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13213

 

Jim

[Wheatley]

25 minutes ago, charlielynch said:

 

@Wheatley I'd wondered about the Bachmann/Mainline period 1 coaches - can these be improved upon or are they best left as is? I see that Comet do kits of period 1 stock - have you experience of these? I am building wagons at the moment, which is a good learning experience. 

The Bachmann coaches were very very good for their time (i.e. light years ahead of Hornby !) they are dimensionally accurate and well moulded. They do (did?) a brake third and composite, you could make a full third by sawing them up if you were so minded but the sensible way to do it is  probably to by a composite and stick Comet sides on it. 

 

Where they show their age is the moulded detail on the roof (although it's not bad) and the basic underframe and gangways. They can be hugely improved by adding Comet cross bracing, vac cylinders and dynamo, you can usually get away with using the moulded trussing. They're also readily available second hand and can be used with Comet sides to produce a lot of Period 1 and Period 2 57' vehicles. If you do nothing else new buffers, gangways and vac cylinders will really lift them (and metal wheels if they're the Mainline version). 

 

The Comet kits are good basic kits, but they were designed as packs of standard parts to be combined as required for different variants. That's sensible but it makes construction a bit odd sometimes where you think "That could have been etched as one piece rather three to be joined together". Nothing drastic though. I rarely build the full kits, more often I use the Comet sides and details with a second hand Airfix or  Mainline donor for the basic carcass. 

[Caley Jim]

@Wheatley has in his signature “Everywhere in Scotland is spelt 'Ecclefechan' and pronounced 'Kirkcudbright'.”.  We've just come home from our weekly sequence dance club which meets in Revenstruther Hall, locally called 'Renstrie'.

 

Jim

[charlielynch]

Thanks everyone, very helpful advice I think. 

[Corrour]

I have a lot of info on G&SWR signalling so if you want anything in that regard to help with your project drop me a line.

 

R

[ian@stenochs]

On 18/01/2024 at 18:34, charlielynch said:

I'd assumed David Smith's oral material was recorded and then assembled into a narrative, but if as is suggested, it was from memory, that is quite a feat.

 

 

David L Smith recorded his findings in a series of notebooks and record cards. He wrote in pencil in a very fine hand. His hand written cards on every locomotive the G&SWR had record minute details including known workings, incidents and crew and are now preserved in the Scottish Records Office along with his other papers.  
 

David father was a school teacher but his mother was a Larmer who were heavily involved in Iron and coal and railways in the Dalmellington area.  His book, ‘ the Dalmellington Iron Co, it’s engines and men’ is a classic and gives a lot of detail of his early influences.  He was a sickly child, pernicious anemia, and not expected to live long but survived into his 80’s

[andrewshimmin]

Thinking of this thread as I read Steam in Scotland Vol 1. I think those photos of Jubilees over the Pinmore Viaduct, or Clans on troop trains storming past the Clints of Dromore and over the Big Water of Fleet viaduct are some of the most atmospheric I've ever seen.

I've often thought that if I had the space, I'd love to do a layout trying to capture the essence of the Port Road and the Girvan to Stranraer line: Gatehouse of Fleet station perhaps, the line passing Clints of Dromore and the Big Water of Fleet viaduct (although I might substitute Pinmore), and the viaduct over Loch Ken, perhaps incorporating a junction station like Newton Stewart or Castle Douglas.

How I wish I could travel over that line behind steam!