Moving soon 20x10 N gauge

[Camps Junction]

Hi all now retired and moving house in the spring I’m going to put up a new 20x10 shed in the garden, I’m planning on building a layout  around all 4 walls in 3ft wide sections, My question “ Is 20x10x3 a good enough size to get plenty of scale in without it just looking like a glorified train set, Any constructive help welcomed .Drew

[Chris M]

Of course it is in N gauge. Just work out what you want from a layout and design one to fit your space. Do you use Anyrail or Scarm? I recommend spending plenty of time thinking and planning before building your basebaords.

[ITG]

3’ wide boards around the room are just about reachable across for maintenance and re-railing etc, but the diagonals across the corners will be somewhat testing to reach across. My recall of Pythagorus theory suggests that diagonal will be 4.25’.

I’d be tempted to reduce that depth to either 2’ or 2.5’.

Don't forget to leave sufficient space for a work surface somewhere.

What height will you mount the boards at? And how will you access via the doorway?

Ian

[njee20]

That’s a monster layout in N, of course that’s big enough. You could build a scale model of Clapham Junction in that space. 

[DavidB-AU]

That's a huge space. C.J. Freezer would put quite a complicated OO layout into a smaller space. (Low res 16x8 examples in OO for illustration only but to my way of thinking they are too cramped.)

 

You could fit a continuous run around the walls with a peninsula up the middle and adequate access space all around. As a folded figure 8 that would give you a main line run of 90' give or take, or about 2.5 scale miles. Or a continuous run around the walls with a triangular junction into a terminus on the peninsula. As an idea of what you could fit onto such a peninsula, in N you could fit Liverpool Lime Street up to the second tunnel in 15x2' without any compression.

 

But resist the temptation to cram in as much track as possible. Sometimes less is more.

Edited February 5 by DavidB-AU

[Hibelroad]

The OP does not indicate his experience but I would say that building a layout that large in 2 mm scale was not a beginners project, more the layout of a lifetime. Normally such a large layout ( sounds like about 150 sq ft) would be a club project and could not be run easily by one person. Without doubt you could fit just about anything into that amount of real estate but the cost and time involved would be considerable. Personally I would look to build something more manageable or go for a larger scale. 

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, Hibelroad said:

The OP does not indicate his experience but I would say that building a layout that large in 2 mm scale was not a beginners project, more the layout of a lifetime. Normally such a large layout ( sounds like about 150 sq ft) would be a club project and could not be run easily by one person. Without doubt you could fit just about anything into that amount of real estate but the cost and time involved would be considerable. Personally I would look to build something more manageable or go for a larger scale. 

It all depends what you want from your layout. I would argued 20 by 10 is still fairly small if you want to capture the feel of mainline trains running through the countryside in 00. I say this based on my N gauge layout that is 12 by 3.5 and that is only just about big enough for capturing the main line feel in N. A 20 by 10 in N would look great and you would get the feeling that trains were going somewhere. 

[NWJ]

14 hours ago, Camps Junction said:

Hi all now retired and moving house in the spring I’m going to put up a new 20x10 shed in the garden, I’m planning on building a layout  around all 4 walls in 3ft wide sections, My question “ Is 20x10x3 a good enough size to get plenty of scale in without it just looking like a glorified train set, Any constructive help welcomed .Drew

Hi Drew,

20'x10' is just a dream for many layout builders, in OO it offers the potential for less compression of space, the opportunity to run closer to scale length trains and a chance to develop a greater scenic setting.

However, in N gauge it can really offer a great canvas for creating a mainline setting with scale length trains. I have a layout based on Totnes in N gauge(see attached plan) which is 'only' 13' 6" x 8' 3". I enjoy the space that I have on this design and the fact that the railway can be part of the landscape. Obviously, my preference is for a layout following prototype practice and I prefer not to se up too much space with track work.

One of my concerns, which has already been mentioned, is the fact that you are considering 3' wide boards. My layout is on boards that are 2' 6" wide and I do find it difficult to reach over to the far side. I am over 6' tall and have a long reach but I do need to rest one arm on the baseboards to successfully reach across to the far side, for example in the station area. I did design the boards to take this sort of weight  and this may need to be a consideration for you.

As to avoiding a glorified train set look, it's all about choosing an era  and a place and then trying to imitate what is in real life whether it be the undulations of the physical landscape or the way in which the track plan is designed. 

There are plenty of people here who will be able to offer help. RM Web is a very broad church so some may advocate a more prototypical practice whilst some will suggest ideas that are less prototypical and more 'train-set'.  The bottom line is that it will be your layout and it should be fun for you. As you start to think about this layout, it is always worth starting with a list of what you really want from your railway with relation to location and era.

Good luck with the project, 

 

Neil

 

[AndyB]

Hi Drew. 

That's a very generous space. 

 

Before getting stuck into designing to that exact space I'd suggest factoring in insulation for the walls. It won't reduce your space by much but will save you having to shrink an Anyrail design later.

 

You'll probably want to keep some room back for a workbench.

Also factor in access to the layout's operating well. This normally involves a hinged section across the door. 

 

It'd be interesting to know what your modelling interests are. Trying to do an urban layout this size would eat up building kits and take a seriously long time to get close to completion. Whereas a countryside scene would come together much quicker.

 

I look forward to seeing your ideas develop. 

Andy

[Chris M]

I don’t whether this helps but here is my 12ft by 3ft 6in N gauge layout. If you look carefully you will see a castle with a 10 coach train and 5+5 IET. This gives an idea of what fairly long trains look like in that sort of space.

 

And a view of the IET

 

 

Edited February 4 by Chris M

[stivesnick]

Hi Drew

 

As others have said, the space you have will provide plenty of space to create anything you want. Having just staretd a silighly smaller N Gauge layout, I also agree with the others that a 3 foot wide board is likely to give you access problems. I am struggling to reach into the corner with 2 foot wide boards. 

 

To help decide what you might want, I hope the following questions are helpful:

 

1. Will it be just you doing the modelling and operating or will others be involved? 

2. Do you just want to watch the trains go by or include a lot of shunting? 

3. Do you have a preferrerd era or location that you want to model?

4. What sort of length trains do you want to run? 

 

If it is just you, then a large 4 track mainline, or a large terminus station could prove difficult to operate on your own. Rather than get bogged down in detailed track plans, I would start with some simple block diagrams. This is where train length comes in. For example a branch line station platform could be 2-3 feet long, add in some point work and such a station could be 5 feet long. A main line station holding 8-10 coach trains results in a 6 foot platform and an overall length of say 8-9 feet in N gauge. Freight trains can be longer still. 

 

An example block diagram for my own layout is enclosed.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Nick 

[RobinofLoxley]

comment deleted

Edited February 4 by RobinofLoxley

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, AndyB said:

Also factor in access to the layout's operating well. This normally involves a hinged section across the door.

In N gauge you might get away without one by turning the tracks back on themselves, dumb-bell style.

[DavidB-AU]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

In N gauge you might get away without one by turning the tracks back on themselves, dumb-bell style.

 

The space lends itself to a peninsula or even two. Some American N examples in smaller spaces.

 

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/8c/85/9f/8c859f218d1f3ca0c8c8adf8d2f57166.jpg

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/fce877_b2cd2f1dc8fa4c0ca1b18e2672f85668~mv2.jpeg/v1/fill/w_640,h_558,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/fce877_b2cd2f1dc8fa4c0ca1b18e2672f85668~mv2.jpeg

 

[The Johnster]

I'm trying to imagine what I'd do if it were me (and of course it's not, so my comment may well be of no use at all, but then again it might so..), that's enough room to make a decent stab at modelling an entire branch line, terminus, industries, passing stations, halts, everything, and still have some main line action at the junction.  I think 3' depth will be a problem, though, too far to stretch and lean over even to put scenery in for a backdrop and you are retiring, so want to make life easy for yourself and not do your back in in pursuit of a hobby!  Keep it to 2' maximum. 

 

Tips to prevent it looking like a glorified train set; model a set location and period and keep to it, operate as per prototype and use prototypical track layouts, don't use setrack, drive at realistic speeds, don't overdo long straight stretches (gentle curves break the layout into visually manageably sections and look more natural), use the space for large minimum radius curves on the main line(s), divide it into 'scenes' and cameos to maintain visual interest and give a sense of travelling through an area (also increases interest), avoid multi-level with track disappearing into tunnels and re-appearing who-knows-where, don't overcrowd it, vary the scenery, allow twice as much space as you think you need for the fiddle yard. 

 

Don't have a preserved/heritage line unless it's an accurate model of a real one (which is pretty challenging as you have to get the scenery and buildings right), paint the sides of your rails in rail colour, and model everyday typical scenes rather than rare occurences.  Avoid overbright layout and train lighting, and especially avoid flashing lights (Belishas and traffic lights are fine but keep the levels down).  Arrange the room lighting to recreate daylight with cool-cast colours and lamps, and do not light the layout from directly overhead, but ensure that at least some light is diffused on to the sides of your trains.

 

Try to avoid cliches like buses on bridges and funerals or weddings in every churchyard, remember that buildings directly over tunnel mouths need foundations so there must be a decent height between the roof of the tunnel and the buiding basement.  Try to avoid road junctions and road/rail crossings, level or on/under bridges at dead right angles; almost never happens in real life.  Use buildings and foliage/trees as scenic breaks as well as tunnels and bridges.  

 

For inspiration, check out Pendon, Copenhagen Fields, Pete Waterman's various super-layouts.  Most of these boil down to a fairly minimalist operation, and avoid the temptation to fill the available space with trains, overburdening yourself with maintenance and being usually unable to operate more than two at a time, one properly.

 

A two-coach branch line train plodding through the landscape at about scale 30mph on a gently curving single track branch, viewed from more than a scale mile away and taking some time to arrive at your viewpoint, disappearing in cuttings and behind hills, seen from different angles with the light playing differently on it as it winds it's way towards you; heaven...

 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

Its a funny thing but a few times when folk have requested a layout design by default in OO, but in a fairly restricted space, for example a typical spare room maybe 11' x 8', that somebody checks that they wouldnt like to model in N instead, or even these days in TT. With this size of room, I would say that its the opposite, that modelling in N might be considered somewhat ambitious unless the idea is to leave significant chunks as open countryside - for me that will happen by default,  because as has already been pointed out, to populate a space this size with buildings would take a lifetime. Or more likely, the scenery will never get finished.

 

From the point of view of layout planning, its also quite difficult. A typical feature such a TMD if were in the diesel era can be fitted in a space of 1m x 0.5M in N gauge, stations are smaller, leaving large in-between spaces. I find it a bit odd just pasting length  after length of flexi track into a plan to the point where I can't do it, so I wouldn't even try and draft something.

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

The N-Gauge layout of the Epsom & Ewell MRC might be of interest, to put things into perspective, being 20 feet long, although only 2' 9" wide.

https://sites.google.com/site/epsomewellmrc/club-layouts/hinksey-yard-n

 

[Arrachogaidh]

On 04/02/2024 at 17:22, Chris M said:

I don’t whether this helps but here is my 12ft by 3ft 6in N gauge layout. If you look carefully you will see a castle with a 10 coach train and 5+5 IET. This gives an idea of what fairly long trains look like in that sort of space.

 

And a view of the IET

 

 

 

Superb layout,

 

Brian Seamens

[TonyMay]

Roundy-roundy round the outside with a lifting flap bridge, two-foot wide open frame baseboards, double track, 4 foot minimum visible radius, Settle-Carlisle theme, Metcalfe buildings, lots of scenery, a viaduct and a few sheep,  

[Camps Junction]

Hi all sorry not posted lately been unwell , So we have a moving date down to west coast 2nd April so I’ve sourced a decant shed company to supply erect insulate and overboard it once down there, Thank you all so much for the advise and recommendations, I want to do LNER based Era 7 would like 2 lines that could run consistently but with a substantial yard area, I’ve considered some of the advise ,Decided on 32”inches in a u shape giving easier access , Will possibly loop back at each end or use those carousel things possibly at each end, Currently working on Any-rail to finalize design speak soon Drew PS design below is closest I came to a 20x10 but thought looked to busy and was 4ft wide in places lol???

[RobinofLoxley]

That is the problem with advising people to look on the net for track plans!

 

U-shape sounds good and very practical. My loft layout is like that, and I offset the long curved sections at the ends in order to accommodate larger radius curves. After all I only needed a gap of 30cm or so to squeeze through.

 

I also recommend, assuming a station will be included, that you find a prototype and use it to steer your design, otherwise you will find 20' length in N overwhelming.

Edited February 20 by RobinofLoxley
Addition

[Camps Junction]

So with a bit more work this is pretty close to what I’d like, 3ft Access into a kind of U shape design,Most of the layout is 3ft or under with the only 4ft pieces being return loop, It will need a bit more fettling till I’m 100% with it, Ps ignore my attempts with landscape, Thoughts .

[njee20]

4' reach is massive; I'd definitely counsel against that on those loops. Particularly with a station down there; feels like it's the wrong side too, you'll just be looking at the back of the building.

 

I don't understand the isolated island platform in the middle, it appears to solve no purpose, nor be connected to anything, but is it not a station platform?

 

From your designs I'm assuming you don't want a typical scenic layout with a hidden fiddle yard? The symmetrical loops look a bit odd to me, and not the best use of the space, but it's your layout.

[Harlequin]

The flyover bridges of the design you found were a nice feature - something you can do in N when you've got plenty of space and something that allows trains to cross in more interesting ways. Shame to lose them.

 

The station is called "Camps Junction" but the two junctions are both a long way away, splitting and rejoining the mainline for no obvious purpose because both branches follow basically the same route.

 

The "branchline station" appears to be on the main line...?

 

It seems a bit odd to have a double track main line passing immediately behind a major station, with no interaction between the two (but I bet that does happen somewhere in the real world).

 

How do passengers get to your island platform with so many tracks either side?

 

 

Edit: The dumbell format does restrict what you can do a bit and causes the potential reach issues. If you could run some of the tracks completely around the space with a duck-under, lifting section or gate to access the operating well, then I think a layout would flow better with more open curves, easier reach and a more comfortable operating space.

 

Edited February 20 by Harlequin

[Camps Junction]

Thanks guys for positive and negative feedback,I still have a few months to sort a final layout, What I might do is put all the liked bits together and see what appears. chat soon thanks Drew