Colliery Trackplans

[PortLineParker]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone recommend a good source for the various colliery (Writhlington, Braysdown, Norton Hill etc.) trackplans around 1957/1958 please? I have A Historical Survey of the S&D by Judge and Potts but all of the track plans for the aforementioned are for 1921 so tend to be more extensive than in the latter years.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[Poor Old Bruce]

You need the relevant County Record Office or Local Studies Library. One or both of them should have 25 inch Ordnance Survey maps of the areas at different dates. You do have to take the OS track plans with a pinch of salt at times as the do sometimes miss out some track details like crossover points.

Edited February 6 by Poor Old Bruce

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There are some post war (1947-1965 are the dates given) OS 1:2500 maps on Know Your Place. It's not as easy a website to use for old maps as the usual National Library of Scotland site, but NLS has very few post-war maps of this scale, and none in your area.

 

From https://www.kypwest.org.uk/, select the modern county (North Somerset?) and use the right hand map to get to the place you want. Set the left hand map to the scale and period you want (Click Basemaps, then Comparison map, then 1947-1965 OS National Grid. The Radstock area seems to be covered pretty well.

 

Unfortunately, unlike the NLS site, you can't pull up individual maps, so you can't see the survey date.

[PortLineParker]

Thanks both; the Know Your Place website is a good site with some useful maps but, as you say, no dates so it's of limited use unfortunately. It does however give a general view of each area which will no doubt come in use at times.

 

It looks as if I'll have to track down a physical map - I can probably then marry this up with images from the likes of Ivo Peters and come up with something reasonably close.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[RailWest]

Are you looking just for the internal colliery sidings plans, or including the main S&DJR running lines as well? What about the new "Pictorical Atlas....." from Strathwood ? https://strathwood.co.uk/products/a-pictorial-atlas-of-the-somerset-dorset-joint-railway 

[PortLineParker]

The Atlas does have the trackplans in, but dating from the 1930s so I wondered if there were many changes made.

 

That might be a good starting point though as I can add or remove sections easily so I may give that a go.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[hmrspaul]

 

This HMRS book has plans of Midsomer Norton.  Published in 1982 so not so easy to find but well illustrated. 

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

Many years ago, Model Railway Constructor published a long illustrated, article about Kilmersdon, including the pit itself, and the incline. Chris Nevard or Chris Leigh might have a copy.

[RailWest]

Kilmersdon Colliery of course was not S&DJR connected - would that matter for the OP ?

[PortLineParker]

I don't think so, but thank you anyway. As the line passes a little way North and then West of the colliery, although I will include it you won't really be able to see it from the railway so it may just be a rough representation of the colliery buildings. That being said, once I look at the map I will be building it on I'll be able to see how much or little I will need to include so it may end up being included in full!

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[RailWest]

You must be building a very big layout if you can include both the S&DJR and Kilmersdon colliery!

[AMJ]

@PortLineParker You might want to try the NLS maps as these can often show up track plans at various scales and ages

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.1&lat=51.29544&lon=-2.41695&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I've just realised that you can get survey dates for some of the Know Your Place 1:2500 maps by looking at the post-war NLS 6" maps (available for the entire UK). 6" and 1:10000 maps are based on 1:1250 and 1:2500 surveys, and give survey dates for each grid square.

 

Start here, with the NLS individual sheets page: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=6.0&lat=55.25350&lon=-2.69900&layers=61&b=1&z=0&point=0,0

 

Find an area of interest and open the map. This one covers Writhlington colliery, for example: https://maps.nls.uk/view/189242358

 

The colliery is in the bottom left square, which has a survey date of 1957.

 

Now when you find the same square on Know Your Place using 1947-1965 OS National Grid as the comparison map, you'll know the survey date.

 

This method for finding the survey date only works where the 1:2500 National Grid survey was done before the 6" map was printed, unless NLS has a 1:10000 map as well, but it only has 1:10000 maps printed before 1974.

 

Here, the survey appears to be exactly the date you are after, but this is unusual. Surveys at this scale were very infrequent. The entire country was surveyed in the 19th century (the County series), with sporadic revisions up to the Second World War (the previous map of Writhlington colliery on NLS, for example, has a publication date of 1931, but a survey date of 1883, revised in 1929). The entire country was then surveyed after the war (the National Grid series), which took until 1965 to complete.

[PortLineParker]

3 hours ago, RailWest said:

You must be building a very big layout if you can include both the S&DJR and Kilmersdon colliery!

 

Somewhat yes, it's a virtual model for a simulator so I'll be doing the whole route from Bath down to Bournemouth West. Cheaper than physical modelling and it doesn't take up nearly as much room!

 

Thanks for the suggestions since everyone, I use NLS but sometimes their track plans are quite high level so you don't see individual sidings/points etc. @Jeremy Cumberland yours sounds like a good approach so I'll give that a go.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[RailWest]

12 minutes ago, PortLineParker said:

 

Somewhat yes, it's a virtual model for a simulator so I'll be doing the whole route from Bath down to Bournemouth West.....

Ah, that wasn't clear at the beginning. I trust you will include Wimborne :-)

[PortLineParker]

I imagine it will be on the route that is generated, though whether it makes the final cut or not I don't know as it doesn't have any relevance in the time period I'm modelling!

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[phil_sutters]

The teacher who taught me geography when I was about twelve was an unpleasant Scot, originally from somewhere in the central lowlands, I think. He was well aware of the coalfields in that belt and was very keen on the Yorks, Derby & Notts coalfield and understood the importance of the south Wales coal fields. As the school was in Kent, he was even aware there was a coalfield at the far end of that county. What he wouldn't concede was that there was a Somerset coalfield. As my home at that time was four miles from Radstock, that somewhat annoyed me. So in my school holidays I wrote to the NCB office there and got a load of leaflets and other information, with which I duly returned to school and he had to admit that he had not had the full facts for his lesson. I doubt that track plans were among the information I got, but even if there had been, they would have disappeared like the rest of the bumf in the 60+ years since.

[Malc2085]

Has Radsto

On 06/02/2024 at 12:58, PortLineParker said:

Hi all,

 

Can anyone recommend a good source for the various colliery (Writhlington, Braysdown, Norton Hill etc.) trackplans around 1957/1958 please? 

 Have you tried Radstock Museum, it has quite a bit of information about the local coal mines and may have something useful.

[PortLineParker]

That's a good suggestion, thank you. I didn't even think of local museums so I'll contact them and see what they say.

 

Incidentally, on a completely unrelated topic - not even S&D technically but I think it can probably fall under the scope - does anyone know of any plans of the Midland goods shed opposite the engine sheds? From maps it looks to be a rather big structure and from models and the (few) photos I have it looks as if half was stone and the other was corrugated metal, but the images are from 1946 and taken from the air at distance so it's difficult to tell!

 

Bath Archives did come back to me with a single plan from BR(W) but it only includes half the structure and I have a feeling modifications were made after the plan date. It doesn't include the metal half nor any measurements and isn't dated either so it's not a massive help unfortunately. I've seen some modelling groups have managed to recreate it and I have reached out, but does anyone know of any information online about it? For such a large structure that would presumably be associated with the S&D, it's very rarely discussed.

 

Cheers,

 

PLP

[Rog7]

Hi all,

I’m rather late to this post but am also interested in the Norton Hill colliery, I’m building a small track that allows me to learn about programming DCC-Ex in the first instance but will also have some features of the area around Norton Hill as my wife lived in the area as a child and remembers Lord Salisbury an 0-6-0 Peckett locomotive. 
I went to the Radstock museum this week and although it is a splendid place staffed by volunteers it had no real information of interest to me. 
I also tried the Somerset Heritage Centre, based in Taunton and they do have information on Norton Hill colliery, now I haven’t seen it yet as you need to book an appointment, it’s all free I started by ringing and spoke to a very helpful lady who found some things that might be of interest. 
I would like a site plan around 1957/1967 and any photos that show buildings, roads, surfaces, trees etc. 

I will report back once I’ve visited the Centre. 
Link to The Heritage centre website

https://swheritage.org.uk/somerset-archives/home/somerset-heritage-centre/

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

The National Grid 1:2500 maps of Norton Hill Colliery and the surrounding area are now on NLS (is this new? I don't remember being able to find post-War 1:2500 maps of England on there before).  Here is a link if you want to look at individual sheets (click on a location and select from the list of maps on the right - you'll probably want 1:2500 revised 1956): https://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/marker/#zoom=15&lat=51.2827&lon=-2.4762&f=1&z=1&marker=51.2848,-2.4768&from=1450&to=2000&i=122161562

 

 

NLS have also added these post-war maps to the georeferenced page, which gives a continuous view: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.2&lat=51.28481&lon=-2.47796&layers=258&b=1&o=100

 

If you want to know survey dates (and get a wider selection of maps), use the first link.

[Rog7]

Many thanks Jeremy,

The map of the area in the 1960’s is really useful.  My wife has now got here bearings and we are beginning to get an idea of its position in relation to her house. I think a site visit is the next job to see what’s left. 
I’ll report back on the heritage centre once I’ve been. 

[Rog7]

I’ve visited the Somerset heritage archive today but it was a little disappointing, they do have items labelled Norton Hill colliery new and existing buildings but when you actually get them they are about a printing ink factory on the site!  

I think you would really need to spend a lot of time trawling through archives to find anything of use re the mine.

 

I have also had a look on the NCB archive at Kew, they have much more but it isn’t digitised yet. 
We are going to have a quick site visit this afternoon, we are Somerset based, then I think imagination will come into play. 

[RailWest]

This photo appeared in print some years ago.
 

Although the signal would appear to be typical L&SWR/S&DJR, I can find no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it had anything to do with signalling S&DJR trains. From its apparent location and the way in which it is facing, I would hazard a guess that it was related in some way to controlling trains shunting within the colliery sidings. The L&SWR origin probably was due simply to the colliery getting the L&SWR/S&DJR to supply it to them.

 

It is the only photo that I have seen to suggest any form of signalling within the colliery sidings (other than the two shunt discs added close to the exit in 1952), but I simply can't work out exactly where it was - so if your researches turn up that info, I'd be delighted to hear please :-)

 

PS: sorry the photo is upside-down - no idea why - the original is not :-(

 

Edited July 23 by RailWest

[Jeremy Cumberland]

The photograph on this page shows a wider view with same the winding gear and boiler house in the background: https://midsomernorton.nub.news/news/local-news/its-the-113th-anniversary-of-the-norton-hill-colliery-disaster. The location of the siding with the derelict loco appears to be on the higher level out of sight to the right.

 

Shadows are to the left, suggesting that we are looking east-ish. At least, we can't be looking west. We can therefore deduce that the main fan of sidings is in the middle of this extract from the the 1957 map (https://maps.nls.uk/view/188612941), and that the derelict loco is one of the two sidings at the bottom. No signal post is shown:

 

Having worked out more or less where the photo is of, I looked at earlier maps, and found this, published in 1930 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/106020263 - this is a 1929 selective revision of the 1883 County series map):

This shows a signal post, presumably the same one as in your photograph, but what it is doing there is anyone's guess. The arm points to the left (northwest), so it is for train movements heading northeast, but this only goes to a few dead ends.

 

There's nothing at all on the 1930 Midsomer Norton signal box diagram (nor would anything be expected): http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/images/sb-diag/msnorton-30.jpg. The ground frame does not control any signals, just the gate lock and the trap point.