LMS era Locomotive allocations on the SDJR

[RobAllen]

Does anyone know where I can find a list of which locos were allocated to the various SDJR sheds for the LMS era? (1923-1948)?

[tractionman]

3 minutes ago, RobAllen said:

Does anyone know where I can find a list of which locos were allocated to the various SDJR sheds for the LMS era? (1923-1948)?

 

some good inf here--https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/p/index-of-shed-visits.html

 

eg 

 

https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2016/09/somerset-dorset-joint-railway-sheds.html

Edited February 13 by tractionman
link

[RobAllen]

1 hour ago, tractionman said:

eg 

https://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2016/09/somerset-dorset-joint-railway-sheds.html

Thanks. Vast majority is BR-era, but there is info for Bath Green Park in 1934 and 1946, though it wasn't Green Park then :) 
As far as I can tell Shed Bash UK is a list of what was seen on shed that day, rather than what was allocated, but does provide useful info.

[RobAllen]

I've also discovered that LMS Engine Sheds vol 4 by Hawkins & Reeve has a list of Joint Line locomotives that was drawn up immediately prior to the official LMS takeover on 1st January 1930.

They also have a list of engines working the "Somerset and Dorset Section" as drawn up by H. Swift of BR's Southern Region Locomotive Drawing Office dates 1st January 1955 which is also useful.

Ideally, I'd like to know what was allocated for the summer of 1938 and then into 1939 after the bridges to on the Mangotsfield line were strengthened.
 

[tractionman]

there's an allocation list for 1945 at the back of the LMS Engine Sheds book (vol 4):

 

Templecombe has 634, 698, 1251, 1406, 3356, 3792, 3198, 3248, 3260, 4146 and 4417.

Highbridge has 1298, 1307, 1322, 1346, 1371, 3194, 3216 and 3218.

 

an excellent book, worth getting.

 

edit: you have it already! :-)

 

cheers,

 

Keith

Edited February 13 by tractionman

[RobAllen]

10 minutes ago, tractionman said:

edit: you have it already! :-)

I do! A Google result indicated that it might have something useful, so I hunted through the pile of books that I have from my dad and found that he had bought it. I really must catalogue the books I have!

This book seems useful! I think I need to read the prose in details for the SDJR part though as there is information about loco allocations just mentioned in passing within the prose.

[RobAllen]

For reference, this is the list of locos allocated to the ex-SDJR sheds 22C (Bath), 22D (Templecombe) and 22E (Highbridge) in 1945 as documented by Hawkins & Reeve in LMS Engine Sheds vol 4:

• Sentinel 0-4-0T: 7191
• L&YR 0-4-0T: 11202
• MR 1P 0-4-4T: 1251, 1298, 1307, 1322, 1324, 1334, 1346, 1348, 1371, 1406
• SDJR 2P 4-4-0: 634
• MR 2P 4-4-0: 497, 518
• LMS 2P 4-4-0: 696, 697, 698, 700
• LMS 3P 2-6-2T: 115, 181
• LMS 5P5F 4-6-0: 4844, 5056, 5440
• SDJR 3F 0-6-0T: 7316
• LMS 3F 0-6-0T: 7275, 7465, 7496, 7542, 7557
• SDJR 3F 0-6-0: 3194, 3198, 3216, 3218, 3248, 3260
• MR 3F 0-6-0: 3356, 3734, 3792
• SDJR 4F 0-6-0: 4557, 4558, 4559, 4560, 4561
• MR 4F 0-6-0: 3875
• LMS 4F 0-6-0: 4096, 4102, 4146, 4402, 4417, 4523
• SDJR 7F 2-8-0: 13800, 13801, 13802, 13803, 13804, 13805, 13806, 13807, 13808, 13809, 13810

 

Assuming, that I've counted correctly, that's 62 engines.

For comparison, there were 80 on the books when the LMS took over in January 1930 and 65 in 1955 when H. Swift of the Southern Region drew up a list. 

Edited February 14 by RobAllen

[RobAllen]

Continuing to put information where I'll find it again (and that may be useful to someone else), this is the list of locos allocated to the ex-SDJR sheds on 1st January 1930 as documented by Hawkins & Reeve in LMS Engine Sheds vol 4:

• Sentinel: 7190, 7191
• 1F 0-6-0: 2880, 2881, 2882, 2883, 2884, 2885, 2886, 2887, 2888, 2889, 2890
• 1P 0-4-4T: (1200), (1204), 1205, 1206, 1207, 2101, 2102, 2103, 1230, 1231, 1232, 1305
• 2F 0-6-0ST: 1500, (1501), 1502, (1503), 1504, 1505, 1506, 1507
• 2P 4-4-0: (300), 301, 302, 303, 320, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 633, 634, 635
• 3F 0-6-0: 3194, 3198, 3201, 3204, 3211, 3216, 3218, 3228, 3248, 3260
• 3F 0-6-0T: 7150, 7151, 7152, 7153, 7154, 7155, 7156
• 4F 0-6-0: 4557, 4558, 4559, 4560, 4561
• 7F 2-8-0: 9670/13800, 9671/13801, 9672/13802, 9673/13803, 9674/13804, 9675/13805, 9676/13806, 9677/13807, 9678/13808, 9679/13809, 9680/13810

This is the LMS number. If the number is in brackets, then the loco was withdrawn so early in 1930 that it didn't get to wear its LMS number.

[Compound2632]

At what point, if at all, did the S&DJR and MR sheds at Bath cease to be separate entities?

 

Thinking that in post-1930 days, the overall "Bath" allocation might include locos principally working the Midland line.

[RobAllen]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

At what point, if at all, did the S&DJR and MR sheds at Bath cease to be separate entities?

Hawkins & Reeve state that in March 1926 they had separate offices, mess rooms, etc., but by 1928 had been taken to change this and the ex-Midland shed appeared to have been given over increasingly to repair work only, with the formal absorption in 1930.

 

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Thinking that in post-1930 days, the overall "Bath" allocation might include locos principally working the Midland line.

It's difficult to tell as 22C (Bath) included the sub-shed at Radstock so the 1945 allocation list includes a lot of ex-SDJR 2Ps, 3Fs, 4Fs & of course the 7Fs. In 1945, the classes allocated to 22C are:

• Two Stanier 3Ps 2-6-2Ts
• Five 2P 4-4-0s
• Three 1P 0-4-4Ts
• One 3F 0-6-0
• Ten 4F 0-6-0s
• Three 5P5F 4-6-0s (Black 5)
• Six 3F 0-6-0Ts (Jinty/Bagnell)
• One Sentinel 0-4-0T
• One L&Y 0-4-0ST
• Eleven 7F 2-8-0s

From this list, I cannot tell which were shedded at Radstock and which were at Bath itself though. Looking at Shed Bash UK, Bristol Barrow Road had a large allocation of engines, but I have no idea which if any were used for the Bristol to Bath line. Though, the Shed Bash UK page for Bath Green Park shows that a number of 22A (Bath Bristol Road) engines including a 1P 0-4-4T and a 2P 4-4-0 were spotted at Bath in 1946 & 1497 which implies that at least some of the motive power for the Bath-Bristol route came from the Bristol end. 

 

Mitchell & Smith's Bath Green Park to Bristol shows 0-4-4T 1404 at Bristol St Philips in about 1923. That station was essentially only used for Bath trains, so we know that 0-4-4Ts were used on that run. There's also a picture of 2-4-0 155 outside the MR shed at Bath in 1930, but I have no idea where it was shedded as we'd need to see 1930s allocations for Bath, Bristol and Gloucester which I haven't found. (Yet?)

Essentially, it looks like the same sort of locos were used for local Bristol and SDJR traffic.

Edited February 14 by RobAllen
Discretely fixed a typo…

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, RobAllen said:

From this list, I cannot tell which were shedded at Radstock

 

I can't find any reference in either D. Bradley and D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973) or C.G. Maggs, Highbridge in its Heyday (Oakwood Press, 1986); neither has much to say about allocations, though of course Radstock is referred to with reference to the various shunting engines there. Would the allocation have been any more than those and a couple of banking engines, Bagnalls in the later days? It was a small two-road shed but bigger than the one-horse outfits at Wells, Bridgwater, and Wimbourne. 

  

52 minutes ago, RobAllen said:

• Two Stanier 3Ps 2-6-2Ts

 

Bristol locals, surely? They wouldn't get up the hill out of Bath... I'm sure I've seen a photo of one on a train at Bristol St Philips.

 

  

52 minutes ago, RobAllen said:

• Three 5P5F 4-6-0s (Black 5)

 

Discreetly correcting your typo (!) surely these were for express passenger work north of Bath?

 

52 minutes ago, RobAllen said:

There's also a picture of 2-4-0 155 outside the MR shed at Bath in 1930, but I have no idea where it was shedded as we'd need to see 1930s allocations for Bath, Bristol and Gloucester which I haven't found. (Yet?)

 

No. 155 was a Bristol engine from the turn of the century until withdrawal, according to the allocation listings in S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002). But Summerson's listings do not, in general, distinguis sub-sheds. In C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981) No. 155 is listed in the Bristol allocation for 1920 but again it's not clear if that includes Bath. They give Bath MR shed the most cursory notice, partly on the grounds that it closed before nationalisation but chiefly, they say, because it will be covered with the S&DJR shed in Vol. 4...

 

Of course one could always have seen prime Midland express passenger engines at Bath MR shed, turning and coaling after bringing the Bournemouth express from the north - early in the 20th century, 115 Class 4-2-2s, superceded by various 4-4-0s. 

 

Looking through photos in the MRSC catalogue, it looks as though there may have been some old Kirtley 0-6-0s based at Bath.

Edited February 14 by Compound2632

[RobAllen]

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Would the allocation have been any more than those and a couple of banking engines, Bagnalls in the later days? It was a small two-road shed but bigger than the one-horse outfits at Wells, Bridgwater, and Wimbourne. 

Seems so.  Reading from Hawkins & Reeve: "The allocation was characterised by 0-6-0 tank engines suitable for both banking and shunting". Though they also talk about the difficulties of getting the 7Fs into the shed. However, it appears that the allocation to Radstock was 3Fs and the 0-4-0Ts.
 

 

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

1 hour ago, RobAllen said:

• Two Stanier 3Ps 2-6-2Ts

Bristol locals, surely?

Agreed. No reference that I can find of them on the SDJR line.

 

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

1 hour ago, RobAllen said:

• Three 5P5F 4-6-0s (Black 5)

Discreetly correcting your typo (!) surely these were for express passenger work north of Bath?

Fixed, thanks. the Black 5s were used on the SDJR and were very successful. The bridges to Bath from Mangotsfield were strengthened in 1938 and tests showed that they could take 270 tons to Masbury and so reduce the amount of double heading required.  There are photos of 5432 working the SDJR lines from 1938 through to 1958. According to Hillier-Graves in Locomotives of the S&DJR, six Black 5s worked the SDJR line in the summer season of 1938.

 

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

They give Bath MR shed the most cursory notice, partly on the grounds that it closed before nationalisation but chiefly, they say, because it will be covered with the S&DJR shed in Vol. 4...

In Vol. 4, there's quite a lot about the MR shed's building, architecture and cost, but Bath is treated as one shed when they talk about locos.

 

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course one could always have seen prime Midland express passenger engines at Bath MR shed, turning and coaling after bringing the Bournemouth express from the north - early in the 20th century, 115 Class 4-2-2s, superceded by various 4-4-0s. 

Yes, and then after the bridge strengthening of 1938, Jubilees, Patriots and Black 5s seemed to be used for the express passenger work north of Bath from what I can tell.

 

41 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Looking through photos in the MRSC catalogue, it looks as though there may have been some old Kirtley 0-6-0s based at Bath.

According to Bradley & Milton in Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History  (pages 65-66), shortly after the Midland & LSWR signed the lease to take over the Somerset & Dorset Railway in 1875, the Midland loaned Johnson 0-4-0Ts 6, 1262 and 1263, Kirtley 0-6-0s 351 and 353, and Johnson 0-6-0T 1128.
 

Edited February 14 by RobAllen

[RobAllen]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

according to the allocation listings in S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

Added to my Amazon wishlist in hopeful anticipation of my birthday :)
My dad has volumes 1-4 of Essay & Jenkinson's An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives, which I have yet to read.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, RobAllen said:

According to Bradley & Milton in Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History  (pages 65-66), shortly after the Midland & LSWR signed the lease to take over the Somerset & Dorset Railway in 1875, the Midland loaned Johnson 0-4-0Ts 6, 1262 and 1263, Kirtley 0-6-0s 351 and 353, and Johnson 0-6-0T 1128.

 

Yes, but they only stayed a few years, if that - the Scotties and Avonsides were supplied as quickly as possible! The photos I was looking at were from a later period altogether:

 

Neilson-built 700 Class No. 724 (1907 No. 2636) c. 1905, at this time a Bristol engine, so quite probably based at Bath:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRS 81465.]

 

1357 Class 0-6-0 No. 1620 (1907 No. 3118) c. 1900, still with its Beyer Peacock builders plates; at this time listed as a Coalville engine!

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 81466.]

 

Spinner (115 Class) No. 670 (No. 115 itself), after 1907 - possibly post-Great War, as it was a long-term Nottingham resident but allocated to Bristol by late 1921:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 65148.]

 

The catalogue captions are a bit cagey about how securely the latter two locations are Bath - "said to be".

 

 

[Compound2632]

Now this is seriously OT since it's a far earlier period than that you are interested in and relates to working over the Midland rather than the Joint line, but looking more closely I find the following listed as allocated to Bath c. 1902:

• 179 Class 4-4-2: 88 (1907 No. 669)
• 1532 Class 0-4-4T: 1823 (1907 No. 1331)
• 700 Class 0-6-0: 710, 712, 714-717, 722/3, 727 (1907 Nos. 2602/04/06-09/34/35/39).

Edited February 14 by Compound2632

[queensquare]

On 14/02/2024 at 10:48, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, but they only stayed a few years, if that - the Scotties and Avonsides were supplied as quickly as possible! The photos I was looking at were from a later period altogether:

 

Neilson-built 700 Class No. 724 (1907 No. 2636) c. 1905, at this time a Bristol engine, so quite probably based at Bath:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRS 81465.]

 

1357 Class 0-6-0 No. 1620 (1907 No. 3118) c. 1900, still with its Beyer Peacock builders plates; at this time listed as a Coalville engine!

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC 81466.]

 

Spinner (115 Class) No. 670 (No. 115 itself), after 1907 - possibly post-Great War, as it was a long-term Nottingham resident but allocated to Bristol by late 1921:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 65148.]

 

The catalogue captions are a bit cagey about how securely the latter two locations are Bath - "said to be".

 

 

The latter two allocations are definitely Bath

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, queensquare said:

The latter two allocations are definitely Bath

 

I'll feed that back to the captioneers.

[queensquare]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'll feed that back to the captioneers.

 

Should read location, not allocation!

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Should read location, not allocation!

 

That's what I understood!

[queensquare]

In addition to the sources noted above I would also highly recommend this little book. Alan Newman was a young trainspotter at Bath in the 1920 and 30s  and the first couple of chapters of this delightful tome give some very useful notes on both local and visiting engines.

I’m modelling Bath in the 1920s and have found it to be invaluable.

 

Jerry

 

[RobAllen]

On 18/02/2024 at 22:58, queensquare said:

In addition to the sources noted above I would also highly recommend this little book. Alan Newman was a young trainspotter at Bath in the 1920 and 30s  and the first couple of chapters of this delightful tome give some very useful notes on both local and visiting engines.

It arrived this morning! That's this evening's reading sorted then.

[queensquare]

3 hours ago, RobAllen said:

It arrived this morning! That's this evening's reading sorted then.

Enjoy!

 

Jerry

[RobAllen]

This book is fantastic. I’m less than a third in and clearly it’s going to need re-reading with a pen and paper by my side. It’s a shame that the book doesn’t have bigger photos :)

I would never have guessed that LTSR 4-4-2T 2103 was allocated to Templecombe (22D) in late summer/early autumn 1935 for the Bath-Templecombe run! It didn’t last long there before being moved to the Bath-Bristol route though apparently. Wouldn’t be much of a stretch to run it in to my fictional Holcombe though…

I’ll try to curb my enthusiasm and write more comprehensive info in a single post. 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, RobAllen said:

I would never have guessed that LTSR 4-4-2T 2103 was allocated to Templecombe (22D) in late summer/early autumn 1935 for the Bath-Templecombe run! It didn’t last long there before being moved to the Bath-Bristol route though apparently. 

 

There were various attempts to find work for the Tilbury tanks after they had been displaced on their home turf by the 3-cylinder 4P 2-6-4Ts. 

 

I was a bit confused because 2103 was the number of one of the Baltic tanks; the idea of one of those behemoths working over the 1:50 gradients of the Bath Extension is alarming! But on careful reading of Summerson, I gather there was some renumbering in 1929, with the 51 Class, originally LT&SR Nos. 51-68, Midland Nos. 2158-2175, becoming Nos. 2092-2109, the Baltic tanks also being renumbered and shortly afterwards withdrawn, their non-standard boilers being life-expired. Summerson says No. 2103 was sent from Bath to Mansfield, where it joined its brethren on local passenger work between there and Nottingham.

 

[S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005) Ch. 15.]

[queensquare]

11 hours ago, RobAllen said:

This book is fantastic. I’m less than a third in and clearly it’s going to need re-reading with a pen and paper by my side. It’s a shame that the book doesn’t have bigger photos :)

I would never have guessed that LTSR 4-4-2T 2103 was allocated to Templecombe (22D) in late summer/early autumn 1935 for the Bath-Templecombe run! It didn’t last long there before being moved to the Bath-Bristol route though apparently. Wouldn’t be much of a stretch to run it in to my fictional Holcombe though…

I’ll try to curb my enthusiasm and write more comprehensive info in a single post. 

I'm pleased you’re enjoying it. I was lucky enough to get to know Alan Newman in his later years, he was a lovely, and very funny man. Most of my choices regarding Midland locos I have either built, or intend building for my Bath project, are based on his recollections. Alans’ favourites were the Midland 2-4-0s which are the biggest gap in my Midland stud at present. I’ve seen pictures of these piloting expresses over the S&D so I’m sure you could justify one of these on your layout. By the 1920s many of the S&Ds locos such as the Scotties and small 4-4-0s were life expired and I get the impression the LMS were trying out various potential replacements. For example, an ex L&Y 0-6-0 spent a spell at Highbridge in this period.

 

Ive attached a snap of the Tilbury tank taken by Alan from one of my albums though I’m sure it’s been published before - from memory I can’t remember where.

 

Jerry