Repair required to Hornby Britannia

[Markwj]

Hi All, have already contacted Hornby who will not look at the model as too old but I have an approx 2007 Hornby brit 70013 Oliver Cromwell and there is an issue in that you can turn the driving wheels by hand there is no drive to the wheels, there is no resistance to them which you would expect if the gears were meshing properly with the motor.  It is a loco drive model I have taken the loco apart but cannot see an obvious issue. The motor does run and the loco will move or will just sit there with the motor running. 

Does anyone either know of a fix or know someone who will fix the model, only people you have used please.

thanks

mark

[Black 5 Bear]

17 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Hi All, have already contacted Hornby who will not look at the model as too old but I have an approx 2007 Hornby brit 70013 Oliver Cromwell and there is an issue in that you can turn the driving wheels by hand there is no drive to the wheels, there is no resistance to them which you would expect if the gears were meshing properly with the motor.  It is a loco drive model I have taken the loco apart but cannot see an obvious issue. The motor does run and the loco will move or will just sit there with the motor running. 

Does anyone either know of a fix or know someone who will fix the model, only people you have used please.

thanks

mark

Sounds as though it's a gearing problem.

I recently had a similar issue with a loco drive A4 as you describe.

Fortunately, Ian of Redgate Models (RM Web member) was able to help.

Definitely worth a PM!

 

Edited March 10 by Black 5 Bear

[ikcdab]

I don't know this model at all,  but you should be able to determine where the problem lies.

If the motor turns but the wheels do not, then there are only three options:

1. the worm is loose on the motor shaft. so you would see a static worm when the motor is turning. I think this is the least likely, but the easiest to fix. Loctite would fix it.

2. the worm is not meshing with the axle gear - you would see the worm turning, but not the axle gear. this happens is the motor mount has come loose or is broken. If you push down on the motor then the worm would engage. Or the teeth on the axle gear may have stripped.

3. the axle gear is loose on ther axle - you would see the gear turning but not the wheel.

 

have a look and see which it is.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

... the axle gear is loose on the axle - you would see the gear turning but not the wheel.

 

This is the simplest to check by removing the keeper plate, and the most likely, caused by the axle gear having split and thus not bound to the axle splines to transmit the drive, as described in the quote above. Just turn the driven wheelset, and if the axle gear remains static, that's the fault

Hornby list the required spare for this failure on their diagram, which is the coupled wheelset. Now, next question, do they have the spares available? Please do let us know.

[Markwj]

Thanks for the replies so far, when I get opportunity will take the chassis apart again and look at the suggested issues.

cheers

mark

[Butler Henderson]

Seller on ebay has currently six sets of the driving wheels https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265464840440

[ColinB]

Hornby are so useless sometimes. Surprisingly a 2007 Britannia is not much different to the current model in terms of drive I have repaired many of them. The big issue is, on most Hornby Pacific models the drive comes off the centre wheel, on a Britannia it comes off the farthest gear, nearest to the cab, so it puts it under more strain. On most of the ones I repair it splits. You can fix it in one of two ways, buy a complete set of wheels or just buy the drive gear. I am pretty sure it is the same as a Duchess or West Country so do a search on EBay for "Hornby FOWLER / STANIER TANK , PRINCESS, DUCHESS, DRIVING AXLE GEAR (B)". The only issue is you have to remove the wheel on the axle and re quarter it. The other thing to be careful of on some of these models is the valve gear, it is extremely easy to break it, New Modellers currently have them as spare parts.

Edited March 11 by ColinB

[Halvarras]

Reference to split drive gears usually involves the old Mainline Warship where it's near universal - however last summer while rebuilding a Heljan 47 using bogies with the old blackened brass wheels I was concerned to discover that each bogie had one driven axle with a split gear. Luckily I had some spares left over from other conversions to the shiny wheels but I did panic a bit and checked all of my other older Heljan locos - no problems, phew!

Then early last month I retrieved an original Bachmann Class 08 (blue 08623) for a makeover and a test run quickly revealed.......a split drive gear. This one cost me around twenty quid for a complete new wheelset.

I had no idea either of these models were prone to this problem, but when plastic drive gears are force-fitted onto axles and thus put under permanent tension perhaps it's not surprising this can happen in some instances over time, especially if the gears were moulded with a slight imperfection which the tension exploits.

[Markwj]

Quick update tried to post a video but wrong format, now fixed thanks for all the advice and guidance, the gears had indeed split bought a spare online dropped it in and all sorted, some valve gear got damaged unfortunately but soon straightened and the Speedo cable has gone but can live with that!

Thanks all

mark

[ColinB]

21 hours ago, Markwj said:

Quick update tried to post a video but wrong format, now fixed thanks for all the advice and guidance, the gears had indeed split bought a spare online dropped it in and all sorted, some valve gear got damaged unfortunately but soon straightened and the Speedo cable has gone but can live with that!

Thanks all

mark

I bet you forgot to release the speedo before you pulled it apart. I was always breaking them. Why Hornby couldn't come up with a solution that avoided this I don't know. It just needed a bracket off the main chassis. The other thing that breaks is the fiddly links that attach under the body. Again they could have made a better design. 

[Markwj]

14 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I bet you forgot to release the speedo before you pulled it apart. I was always breaking them. Why Hornby couldn't come up with a solution that avoided this I don't know. It just needed a bracket off the main chassis. The other thing that breaks is the fiddly links that attach under the body. Again they could have made a better design. 

I did disconnect the Speedo but when I put it back together the Speedo cable got caught under the screw when I put it back together and it got pulled out when I tested the repair! I agree the design could have been better and feel I won’t miss the Speedo cable. It’s in the box though should I ever feel like putting the model on eBay.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

...Why Hornby couldn't come up with a solution that avoided this I don't know...

They have now, there's a good solution on the P2, no connection between the 'drive' from the axle and the connection to the cab speedo drive; body lifts clear, with little risk of fouling on replacement given due care. (Any guesses what will happen with mine the next time the body is replaced, following that confident statement.)

[ColinB]

13 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

They have now, there's a good solution on the P2, no connection between the 'drive' from the axle and the connection to the cab speedo drive; body lifts clear, with little risk of fouling on replacement given due care. (Any guesses what will happen with mine the next time the body is replaced, following that confident statement.)

It seems in Hornby of old, everything was an after thought. DCC socket fitting, speedo attachment, some valve gear mountings. It sounds like they are getting better but the trouble is they are resurrecting old designs like the 8f at the moment, so all these issues continue. Even when they fix some things like repositioning the DCC into the tender to give more room, they mess it up like they have done with the P2s by adding that speaker enclosure, that takes up all the room up. I swear the only reason their mechanisms are so good is because those Triang engineers all those years ago gave them a head start.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

24 minutes ago, ColinB said:

...they mess it up like they have done with the P2s by adding that speaker enclosure, that takes up all the room...

It's 'secured' with double sided tape! Fine for me who doesn't want sound effects - rip, tug, done - likely to be quickly  hopping around inside the tender if used to make noises.

 

27 minutes ago, ColinB said:

...I swear the only reason their mechanisms are so good is because those Triang engineers all those years ago gave them a head start...

Alternative proposal, the quality of the Hornby mechanism designs progressively introduced since the move to China, by now overall owes very little to UK predecessor origins, but rather to technique developed to supply North American HO product.

 

Look at the definite remaining Triang heritage mechanisms such as the  'universal' 0-6-0 found in the '08 with no outside frames' : still with the compromise wheelbase dimensions from the 1950s clearly showing its origins. 'Dire', hardly seems sufficiently critical.

 

35 minutes ago, ColinB said:

...It seems in Hornby of old, everything was an after thought. DCC socket fitting, speedo attachment, some valve gear mountings. It sounds like they are getting better but the trouble is they are resurrecting old designs like the 8f at the moment, so all these issues continue...

Yes, that's the penalty of the large legacy tooling, from having been in the RTR OO business longer term and on a larger scale than any other brand. It took quite a while to flush out the bad old Margateness; my assessment is that Hornby began to fully exploit the potential of the technique available with the introduction of the Britannia in 2006.

 

My opinion is that Hornby continue to fumble on introducing clear range segmentation; which would at least introduce clarity to what the end customer is getting.

 

OK, there is now a premium 'Hornby-Dublo' collector oriented range, but beyond that:

There's clearly now a large tranche of newer product which could be marketed using a 'Modeller' oriented title.

Then 'Railroad', such as the lightly warmed over 8F, the ex Lima, ex Dapol etc..

Then 'Basic', Smokey Joes, 08 shunters with no outside frames etc..

 

 

[ColinB]

6 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

It's 'secured' with double sided tape! Fine for me who doesn't want sound effects - rip, tug, done - likely to be quickly  hopping around inside the tender if used to make noises.

 

Alternative proposal, the quality of the Hornby mechanism designs progressively introduced since the move to China, by now overall owes very little to UK predecessor origins, but rather to technique developed to supply North American HO product.

 

Look at the definite remaining Triang heritage mechanisms such as the  'universal' 0-6-0 found in the '08 with no outside frames' : still with the compromise wheelbase dimensions from the 1950s clearly showing its origins. 'Dire', hardly seems sufficiently critical.

 

Yes, that's the penalty of the large legacy tooling, from having been in the RTR OO business longer term and on a larger scale than any other brand. It took quite a while to flush out the bad old Margateness; my assessment is that Hornby began to fully exploit the potential of the technique available with the introduction of the Britannia in 2006.

 

My opinion is that Hornby continue to fumble on introducing clear range segmentation; which would at least introduce clarity to what the end customer is getting.

 

OK, there is now a premium 'Hornby-Dublo' collector oriented range, but beyond that:

There's clearly now a large tranche of newer product which could be marketed using a 'Modeller' oriented title.

Then 'Railroad', such as the lightly warmed over 8F, the ex Lima, ex Dapol etc..

Then 'Basic', Smokey Joes, 08 shunters with no outside frames etc..

 

 

I know it is secured by double sided tape but it does mean you have to remove it. On mine I replaced the speaker and box with a low profile one from Road and Rails. A lot of people don't want to do that and then complain there is no room for the Powerpack. You mention the Britannia, wonderful looking loco but a maintenance nightmare, the gear wheel splits and as you take the loco apart generally the front parts of the valve gear disintegrate. Then there is the slot at the back which is difficult to engage with and often breaks. As you lower the body onto the chassis you have to remember to locate the upper plastic pieces in the body without breaking the fine bars that link them to the valve gear. Then we have the 8F. By Triang I meant the use of bearings which some companies don't bother with. The 0-6-0s are really designed as trainset material unless it is a Peckett then it is a completely different design.