Converting a Lima class 117 DMU to a class 116 DMU

[Hunslet 102]

Although they were built by different manufacturers, is there a similarity between the units above and would it be possible to convert the 117 to a 116?

 I know Silverfox do a cast resin cab front for a 116, but would there be much work to convert the body shell, or is there even a more suitable donor coach?

Any help and suggestions greatly appreciated 

[Geep7]

14 hours ago, Hunslet 102 said:

Although they were built by different manufacturers, is there a similarity between the units above and would it be possible to convert the 117 to a 116?

 I know Silverfox do a cast resin cab front for a 116, but would there be much work to convert the body shell, or is there even a more suitable donor coach?

Any help and suggestions greatly appreciated 

The body shape etc. were close enough that plenty of people have done a 117 to 116 conversion. The only really obvious difference is the headcode panels. 117 having the large 4-character headcode box on the roof, and the 116 having a small destination box on the roof, and a 2-character headcode box on the front of the cab between the marker lights.

 

Also, it's worth mentioning that some Class 116 units were built with an all second centre vehicle without toilets, basically the same as the Driving Motor Second, but without a cab.

 

It's probably worth studying drawings and pictures..... There are plenty of books out there on 1st Generation DMU's, but https://railcar.co.uk/ is a great source of diagrams and pictures.

[Hunslet 102]

Many thanks for your reply Geep7, very helpful. Thanks for the link also, really informative with a wealth of detail, brilliant 

[The Johnster]

The 116s varied a little more within the class than the 117s, and none were built with toilet centre trailers though some sets acquired them from withdrawn 117s late in their lives.  The first batch had cabs with the two-character headcode panel with marker lights each side, and a later batch had no headcode panel and three marker lights plus one above the destination box. These later sets had trailer composites while the earlier sets were all-second; details of this are to be found in the late Chris Foren’s excellent and authoritative topic on the 116s, pinned at the top of the ‘Prototype Questions’ thread.  
 

As the sets were given blue/grey or refurbished ‘blue stripe’ white liveries, the cabs were rebuilt to a simpler profile with just the two marker lights and no headcode panels or markers above the destination boxes.  
 

I have a 116 converted from Lima 117 vehicles, the correct trailer and driving second outlines being formed by ‘cut & shut’  surgery on what were, IIRC, two DBS and three TC vehicles.  This is also necessary to get rid of the supply pipes and hatches for the toilet header tanks on the 117 TC, not needed on the 116. This was back in the 80s when these vehicles were available very cheaply.  A problem with the Lima model is the oddly sized and overlong passenger windows immediately behind the driving cabs, and I did not attempt to correct this.  For sets in original condition without gangway connectors one has to build new saloon dividers without doors; these had three equally sized windows and bench seats across the full width of the coach. 

[Cwmtwrch]

41 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The first batch had cabs with the two-character headcode panel with marker lights each side, and a later batch had no headcode panel and three marker lights plus one above the destination box.

I think that this should be the other way round; two character headcode later than the plain front.

[wombatofludham]

I can recommend the Railcar UK website for photos and information on the 116, Railcar UK Class 116 section and as @Cwmtwrch says the first batch had no headcode boxes but six position headlamps (three under the cab windows and one on the roof) which in theory should have been able to replicate the old steam headlamp codes, although the idea of a 116 hauling an unfitted freight or being used as a royal train must have been unlikely.

Another page to wade through is the fantastically detailed research by the late @chrisf here on RMWeb with a pretty comprehensive list of formations, reformations and allocations which might give you a few ideas. 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/132193-class-116-diesel-multiple-units/

[The Johnster]

44 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

replicate the old steam headlamp codes, although the idea of a 116 hauling an unfitted freight or being used as a royal train must have been unlikely.

 

Agreed, but the express passenger, ordinary passenger, and ecs codes would have been in fairly regular use, so all four lights were needed.  The original intention was that the tail lamp would be one of the markers as well, and this was to be done with red shades that fitted into semicircular grooves in the bottom of the marker lamp housings, but in the event oil tail lamps on brackets were used.  I very much doubt that many of these shades were ever used, but they were still carried in the cabs in the early 70s, in polished wood holders mounted on the front of the control desks.  Later, of course, red bulbs were provided inside the marker housings and lit as pairs.  A very common mistake on layouts is to show a green-liveried or pre-1980s dmu with twin red rear markers, as they are often fitted with these as part of the DCC features, but the trains should carry oil tail lamps where that is appropriate to the period modelled.

 

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

I think that this should be the other way round; two character headcode later than the plain front.

 

This is correct.   My memory of the 116s being introduced on the Cardiff Valleys services in 1958 is of the 2-character headcode type, which tallies with Chris Foren's account of the second batch being initially allox Cathays, while examples of the first batch with four marker lights were allox Canton but used out of Newport on the Gwent Valleys services, where a 6-year old Johnster was not aware of them.  This explains my error. 

        

[Cwmtwrch]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

examples of the first batch with four marker lights were allox Canton but used out of Newport on the Gwent Valleys services, where a 6-year old Johnster was not aware of them.

Colour photographs show that the original colour [for both types] was a lighter green than the later standard; it is clear in photos which show a mixed formation,such as the one in Alan Butchers "The Heyday of the DMU". dated to 1962, in the West Midlands. It shows a DMBS in unlined dark green with cream whiskers and four marker lights, a TC in lighter green and a DMS also in unlined dark green. The second unit is entirely in the lighter green.

[The Johnster]

According to my memory of the second-batch 116s as allox Cathays in 1958, which may not be accurate, they were delivered in the lighter 'electric green' green livery with speed whiskers and white cab roofs.  Photos of the first batch Canton Gwent valleys sets operating out of Godfrey Road show them in what looks in b/w photos like the same shade of green but without whiskers or white cab roofs.  There were previous dmus to be seen at Cardiff General. the pre-modernisation plan Swindon Inter-City 126 sets later sent to Scotland, used on the Cardiff-Birmingham Snow Hill service via Hereford or Cheltenham from 1956.  I think, but would not feel safe in stating categorically, that these sets were in the darker bottle-green that was later used with straw lining, but also had neither whiskers nor white cab roofs.

 

The later development of the 116s as regards livery is a little confused, as it was on dmus generally; unlike loco-hauled stock there never seems to have been a universally applied standard livery or even standardly applied regionally variations of it.  If I have the chronology right, and I am not claiming that I incontravertably do, the Gwent sets fairly rapidly acquired whiskers and white cab roofs, then sets started appearing in a lighter green shade, possibly initially perhaps the later deliveries.  This developed into a lined version, straw lining at waist and cantrail, around 1960, but at around the same time a new livery, the dark bottle-green, appeared.  I do not remember this without the straw lining or white cab roofs, and the introduction of these liveries seemed to overlap.  From the following year, small yellow warning panels started showing up, as did electrification warning stickers, and could be seen with all the liveries. 

 

Between 1961 and 1966 when the unlined blue livery was introduced, the tendency was towards bottle-green with syp, in South Wales at least.  The sets tended to stay in formation and liveries were usually consistent within sets, unlike at Tyseley where mix'n'match was the order of the day.  Yellow cantrail lines to indicate first class were introduced by agreement with the UIC in, IIRC, 1961 and was retrospectively applied to all the liveries in service at that time.  From 1964, in connection the unstaffing of stations and the introduction of conductor guards selling tickets on the trains, gangway connections were provided on South Wales sets, and the saloon dividers were replaced with ones with doorways so that the conductor guards could move around within the sets.  First class tickets were withdrawn on the Valleys services at this time and the knowledgeable punters headed for the old first-class saloons in the trailers for more comforable seats; these remained in place until the units were finally withdrawn two decades later.  I would hazard a statement that all the Canton 116s were in lined bottle-green with syp by 1964, as were the 121s used on the Bridgend-Treherbert and Penarth-Cadoxton services.

 

 

 

[Halvarras]

2 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Colour photographs show that the original colour [for both types] was a lighter green than the later standard; it is clear in photos which show a mixed formation,such as the one in Alan Butchers "The Heyday of the DMU". dated to 1962, in the West Midlands. It shows a DMBS in unlined dark green with cream whiskers and four marker lights, a TC in lighter green and a DMS also in unlined dark green. The second unit is entirely in the lighter green.

 

Curiously with these units there was a very brief return to unlined dark green just before BR blue arrived - since both liveries shared small yellow warning panels, white cab roof domes and red bufferbeams, only the body colour varied. On 15th June 1967 W50865/59372/50921 was working the Par - Newquay branch services in very clean unlined dark green ('Branch Lines to Newquay', Middleton Press), yet despite its excellent external condition I noted it in blue livery on 1st November 1968. The Western Region didn't hang about repainting its DMUs into the new corporate colours and I believe all WR DMUs were blue or blue/grey with full yellow ends by the end of the 1960s. What looks like a mid-60s photo of another Class 116 in unlined dark green appears on page 59 of 'British Railways First Generation DMUs in Colour - For the Modeller and Historian', but I don't think there could have been many like this before being subsumed in a sea of blue.

 

I've created a Class 118 from the Lima Class 117 with additional body parts and have often considered doing a Class 116. The centre car always puts me off but oddly enough I was checking the drawings in 'A Pictorial Record of British Railways Diesel Multiple Units' (again) just a few days ago and came to the conclusion that the best way to create a TS would be to use a pair of Class 117 TCLs and join the two 'non-toilet' halves together, which would avoid the difficulty of neatly removing the toilet filler pipes on the roof (the roof ribs are part of the problem, unless one is prepared to remove all ribs from all three vehicles.....) An additional internal partition would be necessary, which would require one of the large windows on each side being divided, but panels to achieve this could be cut from one of the spare TCL ends. The other panels to create the DMS would come from the same source. I have the necessary models in storage, and a set of headcode and destination panels fashioned from 10thou plasticard while making these for a Class 122 conversion years ago, just in case - when I've worked my way through a pile of other projects I'll maybe go looking for the necessary round tuit! 

[Clive Mortimore]

Driving Motor Brake Second. Modifications include removal of headcode box and a new destination box made for plastic card. This is a later unit with a two figure headcode box under the centre window. I am still thinking of making the leading passenger window a tad shorter as it is too long.

 

Driving Motor Second, additional seating bays from a "spare" 117 coach. Front end modifications, the same as the DMBS.

 

Trailer Second. This is the fun coach, Lima made the seating bays 1/4mm too long, resulting in a shorter toilet area, not very noticeable on the TC of a 117 or 118 but on a TS of a 116 (or 125) where an additional seating bay is needed the result is a coach that is too long, if you can live with that fine. If not you can always cut new windows and a door to make a seating bay from the toilet area. A third way as I have done with this coach is to remove the sides leaving the end window and door on the left hand end and just the window on the right. Cut along right hand side of each door. Once you have a collection of a window (or 2 small windows) and a door file off 1/4mm from the left hand side not the door. With a similar bit from that "spare" coach reassemble to make a correct length TS. Brian Kirby suggested the shortening each seating bay method.

 

An earlier TS I made form a 117 TC for a 127 unit, where I cut a new door and windows to make a smaller seating bay.

 

Another earlier TS for a 125 where I didn't cut down the size of the seating bays and the coach needed 2mm to be added to the roof and chassis.

 

 

[Hunslet 102]

The great thing about this forum, is the wealth of knowledge and information shared when you have a query!

 

Many thanks to everyone above for your input, advice and suggestions, everything greatly appreciated and a lot of food for thought!

[John Tomlinson]

16 hours ago, Hunslet 102 said:

The great thing about this forum, is the wealth of knowledge and information shared when you have a query!

 

Many thanks to everyone above for your input, advice and suggestions, everything greatly appreciated and a lot of food for thought!

 

 

If you are doing this, a look at the photos above from Clive shows that one other improvement to the Lima offering that can be made is in respect of the bogies. For whatever reason the sideframes should be higher than they sit on the model so that the axleboxes are in line, in a horizontal plane, with the axles. Put another way, the axles and wheels should be lower. The bogies should then sit higher than Lima set them, so there's less of a gap between the top of the sideframes and the bottom of the bodyshell.

 

If you were thinking of changing the wheels because of Lima's deep flanges, Peters Spares do finer replacements using Lima's shorter than standard axle length.

 

John.

[Geep7]

I made an attempt at shortening the front window by grafting in a window section from a spare shell.

 

       

 

Not 100% convinced I did it totally successfully......

 

As I was modelling a 117, I even tried to square up the headcode panel a bit more as well.

Edited March 15 by Geep7

[Hunslet 102]

Thanks John for your advice, I will definitely keep it in mind.

 

The devil is in the detail Geep7, great methodical work, patience is a virtue, that I lack at times with modelling unfortunately!

 

Also, thanks for the photos of your conversion Clive, a picture paints a thousand words and is great for reference!