Handling goods traffic

[Sol]

In the good old days of freight being moved by rail, were  large intermediate stations made aware of how many wagons are going to be dropped off an incoming train well before it arrived? And would that large station have a train of wagons already assembled to be added onto the incoming train which was going onto the next station?

[Flying Pig]

You might be interested in this old thread:

 

 

[Sol]

Thank you - a lot in that thread but nothing I could read, relates to my question.

[The Stationmaster]

The answer to your questions depends very much on the era to which you are referring and that is very much the case with your first question.

 

However the answer to the second one was fairly consistent over the years because intermediate yards where trains called to attach/detach would assemble vehicles in the optimum way to suit the order in which they had to be shunted into the train.  This was covered by what were known as 'Marshalling instructions' and they definitely existed by the 1890s, if not earlier, on some Companies.  And they basically lasted until  freight etc trains conveying traffic for a variety if destinations etc and attaching/detaching enroute ceased to run on BR.   There are still some about albeit usually conveying specialist traffic in a trainload to a destination yard where they are broken up into smaller sections for various destinations so not taking on any traffic intermediately during their journey.

[Sol]

Thanks Mike. my era is 1940-1960s I guess & while shunting at small stations to be done by the train loco, I was not sure if larger stations needed to know how many wagons were being dropped off & handled by local yard loco.

 

My second question was based on assumptions that,  that large station would have a local yard crew & a loco to organize wagons ready  to be attached  incoming trains that continue on .

[Cwmtwrch]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However the answer to the second one was fairly consistent over the years because intermediate yards where trains called to attach/detach would assemble vehicles in the optimum way to suit the order in which they had to be shunted into the train.

5 hours ago, Sol said:

Thanks Mike. my era is 1940-1960s I guess & while shunting at small stations to be done by the train loco, I was not sure if larger stations needed to know how many wagons were being dropped off & handled by local yard loco.

 

My second question was based on assumptions that,  that large station would have a local yard crew & a loco to organize wagons ready  to be attached  incoming trains that continue on .

To clarify, the reference here to "intermediate yards" refers to sorting yards, not goods yards; although the two might be adjacent, they had different purposes. Through freights would work between two major sorting yards, and might serve intermediate sorting yards as well, where they would leave and collect traffic as necessary, sorted as stated, usually into sections by destination, each possibly with separate VB and unfitted sub-sections. Large intermediate goods stations would probably be served by trip workings from a local sorting yard or yards. Through freights were assembled in sections according to written instructions which also laid down the class of train and the maximum number of vehicles, as well as such matters as types of traffic which could or could not be conveyed by that train. The whole process was remarkaby complex.

[Sol]

Thanks to all who have responded.

So I assume intermediate / sorting yards would have their own locos to get trains ready, to be added to trains coming in & then continuing on  & of course to sort out stock being left at that sorting yard & I again assume that sorting yard would have been advise in advance how many items of rolling stock is being left there for them to sort?

[Rivercider]

5 hours ago, Sol said:

Thanks to all who have responded.

So I assume intermediate / sorting yards would have their own locos to get trains ready, to be added to trains coming in & then continuing on  & of course to sort out stock being left at that sorting yard & I again assume that sorting yard would have been advise in advance how many items of rolling stock is being left there for them to sort?

There would be no standard answer to that, some yards might have a shunting loco or yard pilot available around the clock, while other yards might only have a shunting loco for a few hours a day. In general experienced yard staff would have an idea of what traffic might be arriving, though seasonal variations could change things considerably, domestic coal, seed potatoes, and sugar beet traffic would be examples. If a large or important local customer or factory was expecting a large order the station master or local inspectors would probably be expecting it.

 

I remember being told by an old hand railwayman who worked at Bridgwater telling me that when the local shunting engine came on duty each morning they had to sort out traffic that had been detached from passing trains in the evening and over night, at busy times the yard was so congested it was hard to shunt. 

 

Geography played a part in the freight working at Taunton. The steep Wellington Bank to the west of Taunton meant that westbound freight trains could only take a reduced load west of Taunton. This was OK if a train from Bristol or London heading west had some traffic to be detached at Taunton, but might restrict the ability of Taunton to dispatch traffic westwards.

 

Likewise the steep banks of Cornwall and South Devon restricted the maximum loads of freight trains, many of which were assisted as far east as Newton Abbot. In fact even in recent times it has sometimes been the practice to run some heavy trains in two portions over the banks to either Newton Abbot or Exeter Riverside where the portions are combined into one train to work forward.

 

Yeoford on the former LSWR/SR line from Exeter to Barnstaple had a small three road yard that sorted out west bound freight traffic, it was enlarged to seven roads in WWII. There was no permanent shunting loco there, but during the course of 24 hours several different locos were available to shunt. Some were passing trains that called for an hour or two, while at other times a loco was booked there for a couple of hours. At one time empty cattle trucks were held at Yeoford, waiting to be called forward to stations for loading on market day.

 

cheers

 

 

[Sol]

thank you

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Sol said:

Thanks to all who have responded.

So I assume intermediate / sorting yards would have their own locos to get trains ready, to be added to trains coming in & then continuing on  & of course to sort out stock being left at that sorting yard & I again assume that sorting yard would have been advise in advance how many items of rolling stock is being left there for them to sort?

Some did, many didn't.  Attaching and detaching, especially up to the 1960s also took place at just about every station and in soem cases remarshalling of freights took place at location with no more than a couple of sidings (e.g. Broom Junction).

 

Quite a few stations had track layouts which allowed the work to be carried out by trains travelling in either direction and through trains would call to attach (and sometimes detach) traffic in the goods yard itself.   Traffic being attached to through trains often had to be segregated  (i.e sorted into correct order) to mi mise the time taken to make the attaching moves.

 

The war saw a huge increase in the number of places where some sort of sorting sidings or marshalling yard - often in rural locations - were created out of almost nothing, or were increased in size, to handle the massive increase in freight traffic.  Many of these changes hunk on through the period of freight traffic decline which steepened after the 1955 ASLEF strike which caused the loss of much Goods Rated traffic to road transport.

 

A lot depends on the period - you've got that, and the volume of traffic being handled but also the type of traffic created, or used, by local industry and other activities such as farming or fisheries.  So you need to consider lots of basic things before you decide on your track layout and what it will be meant to do.

[Sol]

Thanks Mike

[mac1960]

Sol

I think it changed in the mid 60,s when the the large concentration yards like Kingmoor, Healey Mills, Tinsley came on line.

 

Previous to that some larger towns did have individual freight train starting from their freight yards, but afterwards they were trip worked to the local concentration yard and started from there.

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, mac1960 said:

Sol

I think it changed in the mid 60,s when the the large concentration yards like Kingmoor, Healey Mills, Tinsley came on line.

 

Previous to that some larger towns did have individual freight train starting from their freight yards, but afterwards they were trip worked to the local concentration yard and started from there.

 

 

 

 

Yes, no, maybe.  In some cases trains were starting from goods yards and sidings (various) long after marshalling yards had opened nearby.  For example trains started from and terminated at Paddington Goods long after yards had been opened within a few miles of it - and that continued until it was closed.   But it had suitable sidings to ffacilitate that sort of thing.   And Paddington Goods wasn't unusual in that respect and neither was the GWR/WR.

 

On the other hand Crimea Yard, Westbourne Park, was a domestic coal yard and handled no other traffic but for many years - long after marshalling yards were available within a couple of miles of it - a train of coal empties for South Wales started from there 9including first having to cross the Hammersmith & City Line.  The train was also booked to call at Aberdare Sidings, Old Oak Common, in order to attach any coal empties which might be available there.

 

So it all needs a bit of research into teh sort of things any particular modeller is looking to reproduce.

[Cwmtwrch]

15 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

On the other hand Crimea Yard, Westbourne Park, was a domestic coal yard and handled no other traffic but for many years - long after marshalling yards were available within a couple of miles of it - a train of coal empties for South Wales started from there 9including first having to cross the Hammersmith & City Line.  The train was also booked to call at Aberdare Sidings, Old Oak Common, in order to attach any coal empties which might be available there.

Essentially this was a single commodity block train of empties, London to South Wales, presumably without intermediate stops, possibly with a couple of loaded ones the other way [loco coal and domestic coal separately], run that way because there was enough traffic to justify it. Smaller numbers of coal empties from local stations on the way out of London would probably be picked up by local goods trains and, at a guess, be collected at Acton yard and form part of another through train to South Wales, not necessarily made up only of empty coal wagons, perhaps with intermediate stops. Both trains would be classified as through goods, but, as you imply, rather differently organised, because meeting different needs.

[mac1960]

The Stationmaster

My local large station and goods yard was Huddersfield which had both a large Goods Shed and yard. Indeed the Goods shed a large 4 storey building is a listed structure and is still with us. The yard was close to the then steam shed and had the obligatory Coal Drops and Cattle sidings. I was born in 1960 and remember the steam shed in operation and Coal Wagons and indeed Coal Trains as they were a pretty staple traffic on any Trans Pennine route back then. The goods shed was full of the Brown std vans with and 03 Shunter. There used to be prior to my arrival long distant freights leaving from Huddersfield directly to the likes of London , Liverpool etc but these had gone by the 60,s and such vans as there were went to Healey Mills by trip working.

 

The last vans I witnessed there  were Transfesa / Ferry Vans which used the old Cattle Dock siding's. These brought Italian food products to a local whole sale Italian owned merchant who specialised in that market, and the product was loaded directly on to trucks/ vans on arrival. Probably no more than 3- vans and they again came by trip from Healy Mills with a 37 / 25 on the front. This would be early 1980,s. 

[The Johnster]

The 1960s saw major changes in the way that general mechandise goods traffic was dealt with, brought about by a sort of perfect storm of co-inciding events.  One of these was the 1955 Modernisation Plan, which allowed for more point-to-point block trains, another was the sharp fall in traffic which occurred after the 1955 rail strike, which prompted a major shift to road transport which would probably have happened in the next few years anyway, connected with which was the development of the motorway system and the 40' articulated lorry, then Beeching, which resulted in the closure of large numbers of hundreds of smaller main line stations with their goods yards, and entire branch lines, and the closure of the goods yards of many of those that survived for passenger traffic in order for them to be converted to commuter car parks to take advantage of the quantum increase in private car ownership which also occurred during this period.  In the decade between 1955 and 1965 station goods yards more or less disappeared while the remaining traffic was concentrated on the large goods depots found in major towns and cites; these were shortly afterwards handed to NCL.  Few lasted more than another decade. 

 

Freightliner container traffic began in the late 60s, and revolutionised freight handling in general.  In railway terms, again, it was concentrated on strategically placed yards where the containers could be transferred from rail to road and vice versa.  Household coal was similarly centralised at 'House Coal Concentration' depots, and, like the freight depot traffic, mostly closed altogether in the later 70s.  The demand for domestic coal had more or less vanished, replaced by central heating or gas/electric fires.

 

Some traditional yards survived as transhipment points for industries, especially cement, aggregates, and timber, but in general the traditional local goods yard was a thing of the past before the end of steam!

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Essentially this was a single commodity block train of empties, London to South Wales, presumably without intermediate stops, possibly with a couple of loaded ones the other way [loco coal and domestic coal separately], run that way because there was enough traffic to justify it. Smaller numbers of coal empties from local stations on the way out of London would probably be picked up by local goods trains and, at a guess, be collected at Acton yard and form part of another through train to South Wales, not necessarily made up only of empty coal wagons, perhaps with intermediate stops. Both trains would be classified as through goods, but, as you imply, rather differently organised, because meeting different needs.

Well the trains starting From Paddington Goods were of course Goods rated traffic but in a variety of vehicles and for a variety of destinations as the trains were segregated  to simplify the working at the various intermediate yards at which they called.

 

As I mentioned at one time the coal empties from Crimea Yard - which was a large domestic coal yard, called at Aberdare Sidings at Old Oak to pick up although that stop was not made if the train was already up to full load.  A lot of the London are coal traffic - both loaded and emopty was routed vu ia Old Oak c Common yards and not Acton - particularly transfer traffic routed via the West London Line.  aberdare sidings at Old oak got their name for the very obvious reason that they were where coal empties were collected.

 

The routes used by coal trains from South wales to the London Division were at one time far more dic verse than many people realise.  At one time there were several coal trains a day from Pontypool Road which ran via Worcester and Oxford and one of these survived into the 1930s if not later.  The reason this route was used as that it was better graded than going via Gloucester or the Severn Tunnel but finally of course all remaining South Wales coal traffic for that area went via the Tunnel. 

 

Coal empties at various local yards were - as you say - cleared by local trips although the yard they went to depended very much on the way the trips were organised so many never went to Acton but were worked to either Old Oak,  Southall, or Reading West Jcn or picked up at various other locations which had siding space to hold them.  Originally I think the only ones which went to Acton or Old Oak were those destined for the Midlands although by the mid 1960s most of these were worked  via Reading West Jcn which was a starting yard for several trains of coal empties running via Banbury etc to the Midlands.  By that time very few coal empties went from the London Division to South Wales!

 

Lots of changes over the years as I mentioned previously and WWII, with opening of new/expansion of existing sorting sidings and marshalling yards made a tremendous difference.  For example post war when the GWR reintroduced fast vacuum fitted/part fitted freights one of the Paddington Goods starters made its first stop at Newbury Racecourse (partly for load reduction as well as transfer of traffic to another train) - not a place many people would think of as freight train sorting sidings.